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Post by rbbailey on Nov 9, 2009 21:12:48 GMT -8
I have a non-Christian friend who is a normal, intelligent person. I've discussed a lot of politics and religion with him, and I trust him, so I asked him a question. This is after a long line of discussions and questions from him, including specific questions about evolution v. creationism, religion, the existence of God, why should a good Hindu have to go to hell? You know, light duty stuff that we run into on a daily basis!
Maybe I'll tell you all about those conversations later. But I wanted to post this up because this is one of the themes in my life right now.
Q: Why does the modern world frown on Christianity?
A: It would seem that you are taking a relatively small sample (Portland) and putting that out as the norm, when clearly it is not. Or is it the media's portrayal of the Christian Right? Perhaps if they could be less bombastic and more thoughtful, like yourself, then the Christian Conservatives would be thought of less harshly, and more widely respected for their morals.
Also, Christian is a pretty broad term--does anyone have a problem with Baptists (not the snake handlers though) or the Lutherans? The Episcopalians? I can only assume that you mean the more conservative Christians:anti abortion and anti gay marriage which are viewed by many of the younger set as antiquated, quaint or just plain ignorant. I think this represents a fairly small worldview on the part of many people today, but you know as well as I that reasoned discourse, the seeking of truth and the ability to listen is on the decline. I, for one, may not always agree with you, but certainly I do not frown upon your beliefs.Now, if you went on and on about how we need to only live by the book and exactly what it says, well then, bring on the sacrafices--I will be in line to see that sort of spectacle, but if you can look upon religion as a guide, not a dogmatic proclamation, then there might be more respect. The Christian right gets about as much bad press as Muslim extreemists, but you and I both know that those views do not represent the mainstream views of either religion, so perhaps it is a marketing issue. That, and Dan Brown has not done you any favors on that front.
The biggest problem seems to be the polarization of opinion in this country--that if you do not agree with me, you are wrong. Period. (Helllloooo G.W.) So you have this storm brewing that some think Christians are holding on to tenets based not on reason or logic (the educated liberal elites), while others think they are rigid and prejudiced (young agnostic liberals) or are dogmatic (the anti-establishment crowd, the former church goers who have tired of being told that there is only one way to live your life and/or do not want to make any sacrafices themselves). There are also those who see the hypocracy in the church goer who professes piety, then sins on Friday/Saturday. And those who simply choose to not be 'told' what to do, and live a life that they thinks makes them happy, but in reality is about as real as most of the Facebook interactions.
I guess I could go on, but that seems to cover the gist of it.
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Post by Josh on Nov 9, 2009 21:47:22 GMT -8
Good post. My wheels are spinning on a response.
Others have thoughts?
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Post by robin on Nov 10, 2009 8:30:34 GMT -8
I actually believe that the media, and Hollywood fears portraying Muslims in a negative light. I heard recently that the director of the upcoming movie "2012", showed in his film a number of well know Christian sites being destroyed during the impending catastrophe. He was asked why there were no Muslim holy sites shown being destroyed, and he said he feared a Muslim backlash.
This seems to be at the heart of why Christians seem to be easy targets. Christians, by in large, are not violent people and there are no significant consequences for abusing Christians.
All of these critiques seem to have some merit, but they certainly are no exclusive to Christians. These are simply human faults.
With the expansion of the Internet, and television, I believe that the ability to engage in reasoned discourse in on the rise. No longer do Christians get they information from one source (Their Pastor and those within their church), but rather they are able to communicate with people from around the world. In the last 20-30 years the Church has changed drastically, even to the point where some churches are led by homosexuals and women. Not everyone agrees with this (including myself), but the discussion is taking place. Even withing our small church community there is a very broad set of beliefs on all sorts of issues. I hold and defend certain theological viewpoints that never would have been allowed in most any church 30 years ago. For this I credit and thank Josh.
Very well said.
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Post by Josh on Nov 10, 2009 10:39:12 GMT -8
Let me give you some personal impressions/reactions after reading your post. In ministry I can't tell you how many times I have heard a skeptic or seeker or friend who isn't a follower of Christ say, in effect, "Wow. I really appreciate your approach to Christianity. It's so different than the stereotype" This might apply to my own personal approach or the general approach of our Aletheia Christian Fellowship, but nonetheless the response has been pretty consistant. I don't say this to puff myself or our church up but to point out that there is a huge gap between popular stereotypes of Christians and what it's like for non-believers to encounter genuine, humble believers. The aspects of our faith that most often receive praise from skeptic and seeker friends are: willingness to question things, willingness to enter into friendship without strings attached (such as having to "get someone saved"), willingness to put our faith into practice through service, willingness to be honest. Those are just a few that come to mind. These things are telling because they are the antidotes to the very things that Christians most get criticized for: blind allegiance, insincere motives, hypocrisy, and sanctimoniousness. Personally, I feel really detached from the stereotypical Christian bubble because most of my Christian experience right now consists of being part of a stellar Church community that embodies these values (not perfectly of course, but at least regularly) and being in interactiong with friends I love with whom I have major disagreement about things spiritual (from atheists like Mo to wacko universalists like Robin*  ) All this makes me feel much more optimistic about the future of the Church and Christianity in our culture than I ever did attending a mega-church and living more in the world of popularized, packaged Christianity. Still, I want to add that all it really takes for a jaded skeptic or seeker to soften their criticism of Christianity is to simply meet a loving, sincere Christian- no matter if that Christian is from the most steretypical fundamentalist environment or not. *Actually, Robin's perspectives have really rubbed off on me, but that's for another thread. |
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 10:20:44 GMT -8
Ben, I created a new sub-forum for this topic "The Public Perception of Christians". Great idea. There was already another thread that I thought would fit here well too.
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Post by Margot on Nov 11, 2009 10:46:05 GMT -8
Q: Why does the modern world frown on Christianity?
A: Because it's narrow-minded.
I mean, isn't that the basic reason? We only want to listen to this guy who lived 2,000 years ago and claimed he was the Son of God. We aren't willing to accept exceptions or reinterpretations, or takes from a different perspective on the original message. (Not even when they are packaged together with a good all-American guy like Tom Hanks, for gosh sakes!!)
The road is narrow. Even if you find a way to justify and wade through all the God-stuff, Jesus is a stumbling block. He said His way was The Way, period. That has NEVER been popular--not now and not back in the days when he was walking the earth.
I think it's okay for us to lay the grid of modern times over it and observe it from a more technological viewpoint. But, bottom line, it's pretty hard to swallow a system that requires complete allegience unless you have some kind of personal revelation in your heart that convinces you it really is true. Even in situations like the ones Josh mentions:
"The aspects of our faith that most often receive praise from skeptic and seeker friends are: willingness to question things, willingness to enter into friendship without strings attached (such as having to "get someone saved"), willingness to put our faith into practice through service, willingness to be honest.
Those are just a few that come to mind.
These things are telling because they are the antidotes to the very things that Christians most get criticized for: blind allegiance, insincere motives, hypocrisy, and sanctimoniousness."
These are great-- and I am firmly convinced that they are the way that God calls us to treat everyone. But those will only get you through the door. You are still going to eventually bump up against the basic Christian belief that Christ is The Way and you will have to make your peace with that. I think we may be a world-wide faith, but we are never going to be popular and accepted in the mainstream because we are narrow by our very definition.
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 12:41:08 GMT -8
Matt 16:24-25
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
Yep. This is always going to be a hard-sell, huh?
Still, I think even people who aren't willing to sacrifice their lives for Jesus can still admire people who do (instead of mock)
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ben
Advanced Member
Posts: 115
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Post by ben on Nov 11, 2009 15:40:58 GMT -8
Yep Josh, that really sums it up(Matt 16:24-25). I know I still have a bunch of denying to do and I can't do it without God's intervention. Somehow it's kind of comforting to know that God is the one who enables me to deny myself.
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Post by Margot on Nov 12, 2009 16:15:07 GMT -8
Josh said: Still, I think even people who aren't willing to sacrifice their lives for Jesus can still admire people who do (instead of mock.)...But I am thinking they will always mock what they are completely mystified about. Especially since they don't "play by the same rules" that we do, so basically they can just mock till they drop!!"  Speaking of which...... Oooh! I feel a thread coming on..... Don't Christians spend their own share of time mocking the beliefs of non-Christians? Sure we package it in different ways: showing concern; that little smirk and the nod of the head that we do so "everyone-knows-that-we-know what they-don't-know"; and, (my personal favorite,) "prayer requests ;D" If we are purely talking actions, aren't we often guilty of acting superior to non-Christians??? That's a form of mocking too. I know I've seen it pop up on these threads from time to time. Is pointing out where they are wrong different from mocking? Better? Worse? Just as bad? Enquiring minds want to know!  |
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Post by Josh on Nov 12, 2009 18:16:09 GMT -8
Good question. I think you should copy that paragraph and paste it into a new thread. Oh, and just remember though, you'll never create a thread as spiritually pleasing as mine.... (superior Christian mocking) |
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Post by Margot on Nov 12, 2009 20:22:14 GMT -8
I'm off to thread now...mock, mock, mock  |
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Post by Josh on Nov 26, 2009 12:35:45 GMT -8
rbbailey- I was wondering if you had any further thoughts on this thread.
Also, have you read (or heard of) the book the Barna group put out the other year called unChristian? It's an indepth statistical analysis of the public perception of Christians by outsiders. I just got it on audio for the Aletheia library and started listening through it. Very interesting and informative.
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Post by rbbailey on Nov 27, 2009 15:16:26 GMT -8
There is only one way to salvation: Jesus.
But there are many, many roads to Jesus.
Religion tends to flip these two statements.
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