|
Post by christopher on Dec 1, 2010 21:44:00 GMT -8
Josh wrote:
This is what I don't understand. Even though we can disagree about the finer points of spiritual warfare, it doesn't change the war for the believer. There's pretty clear scriptural mandate for us fighting the war, even if we don't necessarily agree upon the things we've been talking about.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Dec 1, 2010 22:22:21 GMT -8
I think Matt's questions at the end about what the church should or shouldn't be actually doing in light of spiritual warfare were the ones that perplexed me most. We all agree that we are to wear the armor of God, that love and faith are our primary weapons in the fight, but when it comes to something that seems so assumed as normative in the New Testament (casting out demons) we seem to be of a million different minds.
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Dec 2, 2010 23:08:50 GMT -8
What are the different views (or million views about casting out demons? Some believe it isn't necessary or for this day?
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Dec 2, 2010 23:12:32 GMT -8
I think Matt's questions at the end about what the church should or shouldn't be actually doing in light of spiritual warfare were the ones that perplexed me most. Yeah, I asked him to e-mail you his documentation to forward to me because, honestly, I had a hard time tracking with him. It seemed like what he was talking about I would just classify as dealing with sin rather than casting out demons. But, I'd like to hear more about what he was talking about. Maybe we can get him to come on the forum and elaborate a bit more?? There you go...isn't that unity in the Spirit? Normative for who?
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Dec 3, 2010 9:37:04 GMT -8
For Jesus' disciples.
What kind of "documentation" was Matt referring to?
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Dec 3, 2010 17:56:01 GMT -8
Matt said he and his compatriots documented their activities. I wanted to read what they wrote and determine what it is that convinces them that they were casting out demons.
So, now, I don't understand something here. Are you saying that casting out demons was normative in the lives of Jesus' disciples all the time (during and after His earthly ministry)? And by extension are you inferring that this is supposed to be normative for Christians?
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Dec 3, 2010 22:26:29 GMT -8
I think so.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Dec 4, 2010 23:22:15 GMT -8
So, I do think there is an expectation in the New Testament that casting out demons will be a normative experience for the church.
It was certainly part of the mission of Jesus' 12 disciples (Mark 3:14-16, Matthew 10) and of the 70 he also sent out to announce the kingdom of heaven (Luke 10).
I realize that the missions in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 are not in every way blueprints for all Christian endeavors, but it seems to me that casting out demons in those passages is treated as centrally, and almost seamlessly along with proclaiming the kingdom of God, which is certainly still normative for Christian mission.
Then in Mark 16, which although it wasn't orignally part of the gospel I do believe it is a reliable testament of Jesus mission to the early church, we have:
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
which is then treated as normative in the book of Acts.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Dec 5, 2010 18:03:52 GMT -8
I think I need to say a bit more about what I mean by "normative".
I don't mean to imply that such an experience will happen weekly in a regular community of believers or that every Christian will be equally engaged in the ministry of casting out demons. However, I think there are many people in our culture who are demonically afflicted in overt ways and I think the church has not addressed this enough. As we minister to people and extend the kingdom I think we should expect more of these kind of encounters than most of us are used to or probably ready for. I think the enemy shows up most strongly when we go on the offensive for the kingdom. And going on the offensive against "spiritual forces of wickedness" should be a "normative" thing for us.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Dec 5, 2010 22:46:57 GMT -8
So, I don't disagree with anything you said in your first post. I suspected you would reference those passages.
But I have a few questions about what you said in the second.
Thanks for clarifying that. Because it almost sounded like you were heading that way. I know I tend to feel that way just after I read a book or do a study on demonology or spiritual warfare. But then I realize that it's probably me overreacting to what I just studied.
you wrote:
I've always had a problem with these kinds of statements because the next obvious question would be...what measure are you using? And what amount of activity would convince you that the church was doing enough? And how many people do you know that are unquestionably "demonically afflicted"? Could you name three right now? I honestly couldn't name you one.
What are statements like this supposed to encourage the average Christian to do? Should we be hunting for demons? How does the average family guy (who loves Jesus, is trying to live an obedient life, but whose time is utterly consumed with the day to day struggle of supporting his family and raising his kids) supposed to feel about this kind of statement? How does he do his part?
you wrote:
I half agree with you here, but with one caveat. My theory is that demons "show up" more in places where they already have a stronghold. Places like the mission field abroad where people are more likely to have dabbled in occultic activity* or worship what they believed to be "gods" but end up being demons. For instance, I half expect Michelle to come back with some stories of demonic encounters.
you wrote:
I whole-heartedly ministered in the prison for several years and I remember going in half-expecting regular demonic encounters. It was simultaneously both terrifying and exhilarating to think of. But after going in hundreds of times, I can only say that I had two encounters that I'm fairly certain were with persons that had a demon. And neither of those ended up being opportunities for me to cast them out. So what did I do wrong according to your theory?
I also would like to just back up a little and have you elaborate a little more on how you would define "normative" in the New Testament. In other words, out of all the people listed in the New Testament (let's say, after the ascension of Christ), how many are explicitly said to have been engaged in casting out demons? How many did Priscilla and Aquila cast out? Or Apollos, Timothy, James, Philip the evangelist? etc. I think we'll find the percentage is pretty small overall. And perhaps it's not much different today. It may still be as "normative" for the church today, but more the exception than the rule for the average believer.
The thing about casting out demons is that it can sound all exciting and sexy, like you're in the thick of the battle, on the front lines and all. But in reality, I know hundreds of Christians and I can only name one that I believe has ever cast a demon out of someone. I know several more that have encountered demons, but none of them have cast any out. So what are we to make of that?
Frankly, I have a hard time tracking with people when they are finding demons in every little malady of life or say they are casting out demons in the way which was described to us last Tuesday. It just seems too subjective and vague for me to believe that it's really going on. And it's a tough balance because I don't want to dismiss anything out of hand, but I also don't want to be lured into the absurd either.
* I'm not saying that doesn't happen here, only that most people are completely
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Dec 6, 2010 14:01:47 GMT -8
I don't think it would be absurd to ask to see more in the spirit realm.
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Dec 6, 2010 22:05:58 GMT -8
I think there are lot of ministries that deal with the demonic, with plenty of evidence actualy , is not so rare and vague. Check this out. www.sw-mins.org/Deliverance_ministries.htm I do understand the fear of the unknown. However, is not good to let the confort of not knowing and the safety of the "norm" dictate the search for the truth.
|
|
Michael
Intermediate Member
Posts: 68
|
Post by Michael on Dec 7, 2010 14:51:14 GMT -8
My perspective on this subject has probably run the entire gamut throughout my life of faith. Like Chris, I would tend to question whether it should be "normative" for the believer to encounter and cast out demons. At the same time, perhaps our Western culture has relegated the demonized to a life of prescription drugs and mental institutions. Several years back, I had counseled with a "healing prayer" counselor for many months. While there was some lasting benefit to the counseling and prayer I received, I had a really difficult time with the counselor's perspective that there was (potentially) a demon hiding behind every nook & cranny of my mind. That didn't strike me as biblical then (even though I went along with it for a while), and it really doesn't today, either. Biblically, it seems that we should be focusing on the positive aspects of the faith, through putting on the armor (Ephesians 6), practicing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5), submitting to God, so the devil would flee (James 4), etc. so far as our own faith is concerned. So far as others go, if in our quest to make disciples, a demon presents itself, then I'm sure God would give us the wisdom to deal with it at the time. It just doesn't seem like we should be seeking it out, or even expecting it, for that matter. Maybe it's not as normative in our culture, because the Enemy has more subtle ways of dealing with the Western mindset than full-on possession. It might be counterproductive (for the Enemy's plans, that is) to bring such attention to the supernatural. Better to just whisper in people's ears, maybe. I certainly don't want to discount demon possession altogether, but I don't see it as a normal part of our experience (in the U.S. anyway), and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Just my two cents.
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Dec 7, 2010 15:43:37 GMT -8
If I'm understanding this statement correctly, it would then encourage me to want to see and hear in the supernatural even more (learn how to do this) if the enemy is deceiving people here with whispers.....secretly stealing away/trapping people without us noticing.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Dec 7, 2010 21:22:51 GMT -8
Carrie and Vio,
I should probably clarify a few things because I feel like you might be reading a lot into what I actually wrote.
Carrie wrote:
I agree with you, I don't think that is absurd to want to see more into the spirit realm either. But that's not really what I said to begin with.
For now, I'll just leave the definition of "absurd" to each beholder's eye and keep my own to myself. Let each be convinced in his/her own mind.
Vio wrote:
Who said anything about fear, comfort, and safety dictating the search for truth? I'm talking more about keeping our heads in the process and not letting ourselves be taken in by every claim of every demon-chaser.
I'm not sure what I was supposed to see on the link you provided, but in my experience, I haven't come across too many "deliverance ministries" that really impress me as being authentic or biblical. Lots of hype, lots of bold and sensational sounding claims, but little else of any substance as far as I can tell. There may be some that are, and I'll leave room for that, but I haven't encountered them as of yet.
I'm in agreement with Mike that a believer who is walking in the Spirit has very little to fear as the demonic goes.
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Dec 7, 2010 23:19:10 GMT -8
Chris,
For me, to see in the Spirit realm is to also see the activity of the Holy Spirit and the activity of the devil and demons. It seemed like your post a few days back implied that we shouldn't expect to see demons very much at all because you can only think of a few people in your life that you know have encountered them, which in turn seemed like you were downplaying seeing in the spirit realm as well....calling that absurd as well. So maybe that's not what you meant?
But I do think that even though we haven't met or known people who have cast out or seen demonic activity on people doesn't mean it wasn't there. That's why I would like to strive to see more in that realm. Doesn't mean I'll be able to cast out demons, but to see in the spirit realm would be great since that is where we are fighting.
What was weird about the man's stories on tuesday?
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Dec 8, 2010 20:11:38 GMT -8
Hey guys, I'm feeling super busy with school, concert, and men's retreat this weekend, so I probably won't get to respond on this thread (or others I'm interested in as well) until next week. But I'm very keen on it!
|
|