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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 19:46:30 GMT -8
I find the arguements espoused by these demoninations particulary interesting. I think we should discuss this. www.adventist.org/beliefs/www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB/Covenant_People_EN.aspThey make some interesting points. Jesus did rise on Sunday, but he never told us to gather on Sunday, and he never abolished the original Sabbath. He said it was OK to rescue people and do essential functions on the Sabbath but that is far from abolishing it or a justification for changing our day of Worship to Sunday? What say you?
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 21:32:23 GMT -8
I can tell you what yeshuafreak would say As to my thoughts, I need to look around for them. They're somewhere on here already. I'll be back.
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 21:50:22 GMT -8
Don't have time to read your links, but I am fairly familiar with the topic.
Some of my thoughts from yeshuafreak's forum:
Romans 14:4-8
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
As to Saturday/ Sunday, I think it's pretty clear that the Christians began to gather on Sundays very early on because the early Jewish Christians still kept the Sabbath on Saturday/ went to synagogue with their Jewish countrymen. Sunday was their day to just hang out with other followers of Yeshua.
When the gospel spread to Gentiles, naturally, the Gentiles began meeting on Sundays, which was the distinctly Christian gathering. It was also a fitting day to meet, as it was the day when Jesus rose.
Paul wrote the above passage in reference to the fact that some quarrels were breaking out over this. Paul explains that the actual historical day of Sabbath isn't important in Christ:
Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. It's not that I don't believe in Sabbath, it's just that I don't think there's a particular day that must be called Sabbath.
Elsewhere in Scripture, the author of Hebrews seems to say that in Christ, every day is now Sabbath:
Hebrews 4:6-11
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Lastly, we have very early tradition from the early church that Sunday had been designated as the common meeting day. It's hard to imagine this developing so early without apostolic consent.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 22:03:44 GMT -8
Very good Points all.
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Post by asaph on Jul 4, 2015 9:31:05 GMT -8
"Lastly, we have very early tradition from the early church that Sunday had been designated as the common meeting day. It's hard to imagine this developing so early without apostolic consent." Josh
And therein Sabbath keepers, obedient to the moral law, rest their case. And one must say, if the case of the other side rests on tradition, not a direct command of God found in His word, then tradition isn't worth anything more than, well ... man-made tradition.
The apostles had no authority to change the law. God is the law giver, not man. Consent on their part would have been apostasy from the plain teachings of Christ and the rest of the Scriptures on the matter.
Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, not Sunday. In fact, based on the reasoning of Paul and covenants/testaments - the will of the testator must be stated BEFORE they die, after which no changes can be made. Same as it is today. Thus, Christ had to state the change of the fourth commandment before He died. He did not. Therefore His teachings and practice regarding the Sabbath remain. Which, based on his teaching in Matt 24 about the Sabbath still being in effect at the destruction of Jerusalem, makes consistent sense.
You will say, what about the biblical support for my position which I gave?
Romans 14 is not dealing with the moral law but, the ceremonial feast days, same as the issue of food is not about diet but, the ceremonial laws.
Col. 2 is the same thing. Paul is not dealing with the ten commandments but, the ceremonial law and feast days.
The fourth commandment is not some baseless, insignificant request. It is the longest of the commandments, written with God's finger, no less, and its detail and reasons for God's authority is stated point blank - I am the Creator of everything. I rested the seventh day. You rest on the seventh day to remember I am the Creator of you and everything else. The ceremonial Sabbaths were there as a teaching device pointing forward to Christ through remembering events in Israel's history. Quite ingenious. When they reached their fulfillment in Christ the shadow system was over.
It is a fact that if the Israelites had remembered the Sabbath with passion and consistency they would have never fallen into paganism. The same can be said for the early church. The Sabbath was forgotten and all kinds of man-made stuff found it way in.
In Hebrews, let us look at context in the whole.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. *******First, it is worthy to note the gospel was given to the ancient Israelite. It was not new in the writer's day. Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *******The believer, in faith, enters the rest Christ promised to give the weary laden trying to work their way into heaven. Been that way since God finished His work. From Adam to today, fig leaves abound. Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:8 For if Jesus [Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. *******No rest came. No other day mentioned as a result. Only one day is required to rest upon. The seventh day. It is a matter of faith, not works. Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest [Sabbath] to the people of God. Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. *******Is God the author of a works based religion? Nay. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. *******The rest of re-creation in Christ is intrinsically tied into the fourth commandment. Christ is Creator and re-creator of the human heart and mind. Eph. 2:8-10. He is the 'charakter' of God, Heb 1:3; the engraving, the tool, and the engraver of His character upon the believer. All of that is part of the seventh-day and the sanctification God intends to gift His people in that holy time, apart from the rest of the week. It takes a holy God to make a holy day. Man cannot do it, regardless of how many try through their traditions and laws.
The Sabbath was a constant issue of faith and loyalty for just about every century of Israelite history. They went into Babylonian captivity because they disregarded the fourth commandment and also the feast days. God allowed babies heads to be smashed against the walls in Babylonian sieges of Jerusalem, Ps 137:8,9, and we may now say that the fourth commandment is of no merit or force and can be easily replaced by tradition, with no endorsement by Christ himself, or even His apostles? Really? Just like that?
Israel had the gospel. It did not help them because they would not obey it. They would not have faith in it. The rest remains, as well as the day God established for that rest, not another day which has nothing to do with the finishing of His work at creation week. The fourth commandment has nothing to do with the resurrection of Christ and everything to do with creation week and the re-creation of each sinner through the born again experience. The resurrection of Christ is to be commemorated through baptism, Rom 6:1-4, not sunday keeping.
There remains therefore a sabbatismos to the people of God who have faith and will obey the gospel of God, not the traditions of men.
But, as Jesus said:
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
"To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them." Isa. 8:20
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Post by Josh on Jul 6, 2015 23:20:18 GMT -8
Hah, I'm ending up posting this on three different threads (getting confusing, but what the hey): A couple points in defense of the idea that every day is now the Sabbath in the kingdom of God. 1. Hebrews 4 says "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." What is this Sabbath that Hebrews is talking about? It's definitely not a 24-hr period. It is the rest that God has been enjoying since the original creation week. So, therefore, it has been an epoch-long rest. And when we come to enter into it, we enter into it for good: it becomes an unending Sabbath. 2. "Jesus fulfilled the law. In some cases this means the letter of the law is now abrogated/ no longer necessary to follow (ritual sacrifice being a clear example). Some see the Sabbath in this light, but that's not satisfactory to me. In other cases fulfilling the law meant actually expanding it (as in Jesus' "you have heard it said, but I say" sayings), and I think it's likely that the author of Hebrews is saying that the "shadow" of Sabbath stipulated as day 7 of the week is now fulfilled in the entire epoch of the Kingdom of God. In this way the Sabbath laws are not abrogated but rather expanded. Read more: aletheia.proboards.com/thread/2642/sabbath?page=1#ixzz3fBi1pJoV
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Post by asaph on Aug 7, 2015 17:51:14 GMT -8
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
So much for some epochial Sabbath. If the weekly cycle continues throughout eternity I reckon it is still in function and order now, as far as God's command to rest on the seventh-day.
Christ made the weekly cycle. Christ made the seventh day holy. Christ kept the seventh day Sabbath. It is His day. Why anyone would want to see it dismissed by theological sleight of hand, or outright theological blasphemous usurpation, as the RCC has claimed, is beyond me.
The Sabbath is a great thing. The Creator knows what He's doing.
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Post by Josh on Aug 10, 2015 8:27:51 GMT -8
Asaph, your point deserves thought but first, can you answer the question I had about Hebrews 4 above?
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