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Post by michelle on May 16, 2010 21:50:47 GMT -8
You gotta see The Matrix, btw. I guess I or someone else from Aletheia should have warned you that the sure way to get me to never see a movie is to tell me I have to see it. I'm stubborn that way. The bottom line is: although you are convinced it isn’t so, I’m quite sure you could be just as happy and good without God. But I can totally relate why my words seem absolutely wrong to you. I’ve been there too. The reason I am convinced it is not so is because I have lived it. I know that I am neither as happy or as good without God. My brain is too tired to process the rest right now.
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Post by moritz on May 20, 2010 1:39:58 GMT -8
I guess I or someone else from Aletheia should have warned you that the sure way to get me to never see a movie is to tell me I have to see it. I'm stubborn that way. Ah well, don't see it. It's totally overrated. You know, just one of those shallow flicks. And the large amount of Christian motives among all the philosophies in that movie... to hell with it. You're right, don't see it. Is that better?? ;D The reason I am convinced it is not so is because I have lived it. I know that I am neither as happy or as good without God. You know yourself better than I do, so I'm not going to argue with you. If your true inner nature is as wicked as you said, I can only hope for the sake of us all that you will hold on to your God. I'm pretty sure that's settled. I'm curious though how deep you stumbled into the rabbit hole that leads the way to atheism? I know for sure that it's a long and dark tunnel and most Christians I know stood in front of it at some point. Some even tentatively walked a couple of miles into the darkness. But most of them walked back ahead of time because there was no prospect of finding happiness on the other side. Most of them are convinced they know what a life without God is all about now. But they didn't even make it half way through the tunnel and although you don't believe it, there is light at the end of it. But it's a long march. It takes years of walking and pondering. And it sure looks hopeless from the other side. But I'm sure you haven't gone all the way because if you had, you wouldn't make the statements you made. If you had, you might still prefer the side of the tunnel you came from and return (there's a shortcut for the way back ) but at least you would know that living happy and well is absolutely possible without God - even for you. My brain is too tired to process the rest right now. Bummer!
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Post by Josh on Sept 10, 2010 19:40:40 GMT -8
Mo- I'm curious what you meant here. What shortcut were you referring to?
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Post by moritz on Sept 14, 2010 7:57:45 GMT -8
Mo- I'm curious what you meant here. What shortcut were you referring to? Forget about it.
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Post by moritz on Sept 15, 2010 5:51:33 GMT -8
A question for everybody: If you had indisputable, irrefutable proof that there was no God... We have played this through hypothetically. Now I'm wondering: How would "indisputable, irrefutable proof" look like to you? I mean, we all know that such proof can never exist. Religious faith is unfalsifiable. For example: no matter what one might bring to the table, noone can ever exclude with certainty the possibility that what looks like irrefutable proof (the mummy of Jesus Christ e.g.) has actually been placed there by the forces of evil (or even God) in order to lead astray or confuse or whatever. So what would it take for anyone of you to change your mind about the truthclaim of Christianity?
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Post by moritz on Sept 18, 2010 2:24:34 GMT -8
A question for everybody: If you had indisputable, irrefutable proof that there was no God... We have played this through hypothetically. Now I'm wondering: How would "indisputable, irrefutable proof" look like to you? ... So what would it take for anyone of you to change your mind about the truthclaim of Christianity? Nobody? Josh?
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Post by Josh on Sept 18, 2010 7:51:11 GMT -8
It's a great question. I was hoping someone else would take a nibble first.
People, don't be shy. Moritz doesn't bite (usually)
Keep in mind I'm always trying to encourage more people to jump in- even though participation in any forums tends to wax and wane. I'm hoping for a new waxing.
I'll respond to this before long though.
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Post by robin on Sept 20, 2010 7:54:15 GMT -8
Because my experience with Jesus has been so real, it would take some significant evidence, like irrefutable proof that Jesus was never raised from the dead.
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Post by Josh on Sept 20, 2010 15:04:54 GMT -8
But can you give an example of an irrefutable proof that Jesus didn't rise from the dead?
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Post by christopher on Sept 20, 2010 19:42:08 GMT -8
I'm going to have to go with the standard atheist response. ;D If God came down in person and told me face to face I have the wrong faith, then I'd be convinced.
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Post by Josh on Sept 20, 2010 20:06:01 GMT -8
Okay, so here goes my best answer.
I don't think there can be a final proof either way.
But I do think that if enough evidence (internal and external, intellectual and emotional) turned up against this belief, then it would need to be abandoned. I just can't say how much.
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Post by robin on Sept 21, 2010 8:45:51 GMT -8
But can you give an example of an irrefutable proof that Jesus didn't rise from the dead? I don't think that evidence could be found today, but at one point it could have been.
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Post by christopher on Sept 21, 2010 17:55:07 GMT -8
That's a good point Robin. The further back in history we go, the less falsifiable any history is. But if we listen to even the silent clues (like lack of contemporary evidence against the resurrection), we can draw some pretty sound inferences from it.
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Post by moritz on Sept 30, 2010 4:51:36 GMT -8
All these cryptic replies Christopher: I'm not getting you. Are you tongue in cheek saying that there actually is no irrefutable proof for you (Jesus telling you personally he doesn't exist...) or are you saying that you would only abandon Christianity in favor of "another God" revealing himself directly (and hence discarding the possibility of an impersonal God or even no God at all)? Robin: I agree with you that evidence can hardly be found today. But could you nonetheless give examples of hypothetic compelling evidence? The same goes for you Josh: how would "enough internal and external, emotional and intellectual evidence" look like exactly?
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Post by robin on Sept 30, 2010 8:28:13 GMT -8
Perhaps during the days following the resurrection, if skeptics were able to produce the still dead body of Jesus, that evidence would be compelling, and Christianity would be stopped dead in it's tracks.
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Post by christopher on Oct 1, 2010 7:34:07 GMT -8
My answer was definitely tongue in cheek. It's partly because I think the question is moot. In logical terms, it would be similar to trying to prove a negative or denying the antecedent.
The truth is, I have no idea what would convince me that there is no God because all the data is not summed up in facts and logic. I have a relationship with some being that I know as God*.
It would be like asking "what would convince me that my mother is not my mother". Well, you could produce all kinds of documentation and witnesses saying she wasn't. But I still have a 42 year relationship with this woman so my first thought wouldn't be "I guess mothers don't exist" it would be more like "then who are you?".
Likewise, if God himself revealed to me that Jesus was an impostor or that all the historical evidence is just a bunch of hooey, then I'd be left wondering who it is that I'm worshiping.
Do you see what I mean?
* I'll won't deny that this relationship technically could be all in my head, as could any of my relationships. But since I'm strongly convinced otherwise, let's just say it's real for the sake of this discussion.
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Post by robin on Oct 1, 2010 7:51:16 GMT -8
Are you saying that I may just be a figment of your imagination? If so, you have imagined me a fairly nice life. Thank you.
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