Matthew 25: AD 70 or Final Judgment?

[Josh]

Christopher,

If you get some time, I am curious as to how you would interpret the details of the parables in Matthew 25 assuming the view that they are describing Jesus' "judgment coming" on Jerusalem in AD 70. I'm familiar with some thinking along these lines, and some aspects makes sense to me, but most still seem to me to be clearly referring to the final judgment (Rev. 20).

[christopher]

Ok, Matthew 25…finally.

I’ve said elsewhere that I currently lean towards seeing this chapter as an extension to the Olivet discourse about the judgment of the nation of Israel in 70AD. I’ve long suspected it, but now it’s high time I substantiate that “heresy” by laying out my case for it.

I know I’m not the first to see these verses this way, and there are probably much better cases out there to be made for it, I simply haven’t read most of them yet. So I will lay out on my own case first, and possibly add to it later as I read what others have to say about it. Unfortunately, this will have to be done in small pieces also, as time allows.

I will say that although I’ve long suspected this reading of these passages is the correct view, it’s only fairly recently that my suspicion has been bolstered into to strong leanings in that direction. This is due, in part, to the discovery that one of my new favorite New Testament scholars, NT Wright, also shares the view that many (if not all) of the parables we traditionally have viewed as end of the world / final judgment passages are actually speaking of the final judgment on the nation of Israel as God’s chosen people. I know he takes this view on the parable of the talents (Matt 25, and Luke 19) and on all the Matthew 13 passages, and I suspect he leans that way on the sheep and goats and ten virgins parables as well (though I have not yet heard him explicitly say so).

For my part here, I’ll take the last parable (sheep and goats) first, because it is the one that sounds most like the final judgment IMO.

Matt 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NKJV


The first thing I’d like to point out here is that God coming in glory with all the holy angels is not unique to the NT. It has precedent in the OT. It is seen in relation to national judgment in the OT for those who oppose God’s people.

In Psalm 78, talking about the Exodus, the psalmist writes:

Ps 78:49
49 He cast on them the fierceness of His anger,
Wrath, indignation, and trouble,
By sending angels of destruction among them.
NKJV

We also see the nation of Assyria destroyed by one angel (2Ki 19:35). Also, the Syrians who were struck with blindness (2Ki 6) by angels that only Elisha and his servant could see.

There are more examples, but the point is that the nation being judged would not have necessarily seen their defeat as God coming with His holy angels in judgment. Likewise, in 70AD, it would not have been recorded in history that something supernatural had happened to the Jews, as described in this parable, but rather a normal war of one nation defeating another.

However, in the heavenly realm, it is actually a decisive divine judgment against a nation.

Another thing is, the Greek word angelos need not refer to heavenly beings as we normally think of them. The word simply means “messenger” and it is used many times to refer to human beings (like John the Baptists messengers in Luke 7:24). The same is true in the Hebrew word as well. The Romans were God’s “messengers” of wrath, if you will, against the nation of Israel.

At this point, I would like to point out something very important to notice in the passage. Verse 32 says:

32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Separate one what from one another? I would like to suggest that the separation described here is not of individual people, but of one group, or category, of people (i.e. nations) from another. The separation is of those who collectively showed justice, faithfulness, and mercy (the remnant, or the church), from those who were supposed to do that, but did not (the idolatrous apostate nation of Israel).

Again, this language is national judgment language borrowed from the OT.

In the book of Zephaniah, God says:

Zeph 3:8
8 "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD,
"Until the day I rise up for plunder;
My determination is to gather the nations
To My assembly of kingdoms,
To pour on them My indignation,
All my fierce anger;
All the earth shall be devoured
With the fire of My jealousy.
NKJV

This is remarkable because the surrounding context shows that this is a judgment against His own rebellious people, not a universal judgment of the whole world. I believe it’s talking about the time of the coming of Messiah and the judgment on the nation of Israel at that time.

Likewise, in Isaiah we see:

Isa 66:18-21
18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD.
NKJV

I believe this chapter is also talking about the 1st coming of Messiah. But again we see this theme of “gathering the nations” in judgment. Those that did escape the judgment of 70AD (all the Christians in Jerusalem according to Eusebius) did indeed declare God’s glory among the Gentiles in all these lands.

Furthermore, and perhaps even stronger, we see in Joel this saying:

Joel 3:1-2
"For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
NKJV

And…

Joel 3:12
12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
NKJV

Again, I take this to be referring to the time of the 1st Century events. This is evidenced by the fact that the apostles applied it to their time (see Acts 2). Most people these days apply this to the modern day re-establishment of the nation of Israel, but for many reasons I won’t get into now, I think that is highly unlikely, if not impossible.

But notice how the Lord says He will “gather all nations” where He will “sit to judge” them. Classic prophetic hyperbole with poetic fierceness and finality to emphasize the sovereignty of God and the certainty of His judgments.

I think the same thing is going on in the words of Jesus (who was not only the Son of God, but a prophet in the order of Moses and Isaiah). In the same way Exodus and Leviticus talks about those who are “cut off from their people”, I think it’s possible that we’re to see this casting out into “outer darkness” in many of these parables as symbolic of Israel (the nation) being cut off and replaced by the new Israel (Jesus and the church…see Matt 21:43).

Oops, Did I say replaced? Oh no, that’s "replacement theology"….heresy!

Enough for now…I’m outta time. I’ll need to come back and finish my thoughts on this later.

[Josh]

"Replace" all you want- the New Testament authors did.

Your logic here is sound, and along the lines that I've considered when thinking with the "coming in the clouds=AD 70" hat.

But, on the other hand, it's not just Rev. 20 that makes me lean toward seeing these parables as related to a "final judgment". Do you see Rev. 20 as referring to a judgment by the Father, and AD 70 as being a judgment by the Son? I'm just curious if that is one way to divide texts about different judgments.

The problem I see with that would be that quite often in the New Testament you read texts like this:

2 Corinthians 5:10:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The "while done in the body" phrase seems to indicate pretty strongly that Paul is thinking about a judgment we will experience after death (or more likely, as the first act after our resurrection). Here Christ is clearly the judge, and the wording sounds so similar to Matt. 25, but the context is much more clearly, IMO, "the Final Judgment".

[christopher]

Oh yeah....I need to get back to this don't I? ;D

"Replace" all you want- the New Testament authors did.

Yeah, I know....but I came from a church that would commonly say that "replacement theology" was from the "pit of hell" so I just wanted to throw that jab in there. The hitch was, nobody could describe what it was...they just knew it was from the "pit of hell" LOL.

"Do you see Rev. 20 as referring to a judgment by the Father, and AD 70 as being a judgment by the Son? I'm just curious if that is one way to divide texts about different judgments.

I don't think it's necessary to make a distinction between which person of the Trinity was doing the judging. God has had many judgments over the course of human history and many of them include language that describes fire. Fire is a common word to symbolize judgment on a nation in the OT.

I also take the passage you quoted in 2 Cor as a final judgment passage. I see no need to take them all as speaking of 70AD. I've just come to see many of the apocalyptic sounding passages (like most of the Jesus' parables, and possibly Rev 20) that way.

I'll have to come back tomorrow to add more. Go to go to prison right now. (only to visit and teach of course ).

[Josh]

Matthew 25: 6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

Somewhat a sidenote/ somewhat related:

What's your opinion on the gaping lack of evidence that the early Church interpreted these passages as about AD 70?

If as many New Testament passages are about an AD 70 coming as you suggest, why wasn't there any discussion of their fulfillment in the earliest literature of the Church fathers?

I see this as a problem for my view that, for instance, the Tribulation/ Antichrist should be associated with Nero and events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem as well. If that's the correct interpretation of these passages, then why weren't the early Christians discussing and clearly teaching that the passages had already been fulfilled?

But at least there is some admission in the Fathers that there were in extant different views on the antichrist and the millenium. When it comes to interpreting passages like the parables in Matthew 25, I don't think I've ever read an early Church commentary that links these with AD 70.

[christopher]

I'll have to plead ignorance on what the early church fathers said about these passages. Do you have any quotes I can reference?

While I do give weight to the opinions of the ECFs, I do not believe them to be inspired. Their opinions are about as good as any other informed scripture commentator IMO. True, they are closer to the source time wise, but many of them also held what most of us would consider some odd beliefs as well.

It is not surprising to me if they don't support a 70AD fulfillment of the passages since not even the most educated Jews themselves correctly interpreted prophetic OT passages about Jesus. They are rather obscure and hard to pin down. I think that is by design. God told Isaiah:


Isa 6:9-10
9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people:

'Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'

10 "Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed."
NKJV


That is not to apply to the ECFs, but it points out that prophetic words were often designed to be hard, if not impossible, for the common people to understand.

This is also why I will probably never a hold a dogmatic view on these passages, only a 'biblically-informed intuitive leaning'.

[christopher]

I can't remember where I left off, but I want to next explore the possibility of everlasting (aionios) fire simply being another way of saying 'divine judgment'. This kind of language is sometimes used to talk about judgment of nations and it's not necessary to see it as a reference to eternity in Hell.

But I'll have to explore that later....breaks' over.

[Josh]

I'll have to plead ignorance on what the early church fathers said about these passages. Do you have any quotes I can reference?

I finished a survey of all the ECF quotes on Matthew 25 (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture vol. 1b) and didn't find a single one that held that these passages found their fulfillment in AD 70. All of the early commentators expected a future fulfillment and seemed (some implicitly other explicitly) to equate these parables with the Final Judgment.

While I do give weight to the opinions of the ECFs, I do not believe them to be inspired. Their opinions are about as good as any other informed scripture commentator IMO. True, they are closer to the source time wise, but many of them also held what most of us would consider some odd beliefs as well.

Obviously (hopefully its obvious) I don't see the ECF as "inspired" in the same sense as the authors of Scripture. However, I do place more stock in their proximity to the 1st Century than you do apparently. But that can be for another thread

It is not surprising to me if they don't support a 70AD fulfillment of the passages since not even the most educated Jews themselves correctly interpreted prophetic OT passages about Jesus. They are rather obscure and hard to pin down. I think that is by design. God told Isaiah...

Not so fast!

When Jesus quotes this passage he affirms that those outside the kingdom would be blinded, but emphasizes that those who belong to the kingdom would understand his parables:

Matthew 13:10-16

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

See also Luke 8:10.

These are pretty pivotal passages. Is it really possible that not a shred of apostolic memory or witness (as far as we know) to their true meaning would have been preserved?

Why don't we have one of the disciples or early Christians proclaiming all these things fulfilled after AD 70? I mean, who could miss that opportunity?

I know this is somewhat an argument from silence, but still, I think it has weight.

[christopher]

I finished a survey of all the ECF quotes on Matthew 25 (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture vol. 1b) and didn't find a single one that held that these passages found their fulfillment in AD 70. All of the early commentators expected a future fulfillment and seemed (some implicitly other explicitly) to equate these parables with the Final Judgment.

Can I trouble you for references so I can look up what they actually said?

I still don't see it as much of a problem.

Obviously (hopefully its obvious) I don't see the ECF as "inspired" in the same sense as the authors of Scripture. However, I do place more stock in their proximity to the 1st Century than you do apparently. But that can be for another thread

That would be a great thread...there are a lot of things even the earliest of ECFs wrote that make me go Hmmmm.

Not so fast!

When Jesus quotes this passage he affirms that those outside the kingdom would be blinded, but emphasizes that those who belong to the kingdom would understand his parables:

Is that really what Jesus is saying? Or is He saying that they (the apostles) have been given that privelege? After all, He is talking privately to them at this point. He also gave opened their eyes to understand the scripture (Luke 24:45).

If He was stating categorically that all in the kingdom would understand the parables, then I'm afraid I'm confused about all the many different opinions Christians have on them (I myself have several opinions on certain parables )

Anyway, I've been meaning to post the next installment of this thread, but it kind of got out of control with all the OT passages I was going to cite (about 15 pages worth ). So, in order to be a good steward of cyberspace, I need to condense it quite a bit before I post it.

Hopefully I'll have time in the next few days to do that.

[Josh]

Can I trouble you for references so I can look up what they actually said?

You can borrow the "Matthew" ACCS (ancient christian commentary on scripture) from the ACF library anytime- just let me know. The Matthew 25 section is about 20 pages.

No, I don't think Jesus meant that every Christian would categorically understand the parables correctly. But I'd certainly hope that maybe even one Christian author would understand them correctly fover the next 500 years

I mean, the ECFs didn't exist in a vacuum. Several of the key ECFs were disciples of the apostles themselves. Anyway, if you are more interested in analyzing Matt. 25 textually and in the context of the rest of scripture, that's fine. I made my point about the absence of ECF support for this view, for what it's worth to anyone.

Sometime soon I'll start a thread on the relative importance of letting the ECFs weigh in.

[christopher]

Fire as a metaphor for national judgment:

Well, I started putting together an exhaustive list of OT passages to make this point, but it soon became so big that I didn’t think it wise to post all of it here (lest it does not get read at all).

So what I’ll do is post a few of the more weighty comparative passages and then list references for the rest of them. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it’s interesting to see how often this language is used metaphorically in the OT to speak of God judging nations by means of war. Just for fun, if you have bible software, do a concordance search on the phrase “kindle a fire” or “fire is kindled” (KJV, NKJV). But here are some references to look up if you wish to:

Against Moab: (Jer 48:41-45, Amos 2:2)
Against Babylon: (Jer 50 and 51, Isa 47:14)
Against Damascus: (Jer 49:27, Amos 1:4)
Against Gaza / Philistines: (Amos 1:7)
Against Egypt: (Jer 43:12, Ezek 30:8, 13-16 )
Against Tyre: (Ezek 28:18-19, Amos 1:10)
Against the Ammonites: (Amos 1:14)
Against the Edomites (Obad 15-18) – BTW, this passages uses the phrase “all the nations” also.
Against Gog and Magog (Ezek 38:19-21)
Against Assyria: (Isa 30:30-31)

By the way, speaking of Assyria’s judgment, check this out:

Isa 30:33
33 For Tophet was established of old,
Yes, for the king it is prepared.
He has made it deep and large;
Its pyre is fire with much wood;
The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone,
Kindles it.
NKJV

Tophet is another name for the Valley of Hinnom (Jer 7:32, 19:6)…or Gehenna in Greek…better known as hell. In fact, Jer. 19 has lots to say about Tophet. But that chapter is about God’s judgment on Judah by the Babylonians in 586 BC.



And last (but by no means least)….

Against Israel and Judah: (Isaiah 5:24, 9:19, 10:16-18, 27:10-11, 29:6, 30:27, 33:12-14, 42:24-25, 50:11, 66:15-16, Jeremiah 4:3-4, 5:14, 11:14-16, 15:14, 17:4, 17:26-27, 21:11-12, 23:28-29, Lam 1:13, 2:3-4, 4:11, Ezekiel 5:1-4, 15, 19:10-14, 20:47-49, 21:30-32, 22:17-22, 23:25, 24:9-10, 24:12, 24:14, Hos 7:4-7, 8:14, Joel 1:19-20, 2:3, 2:30-31)

Most interesting are these types of phrases that God uses against judging Israel and Judah:

Everlasting fire

Isa 33:12-14
12 And the people shall be like the burnings of lime;
Like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might."

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
NKJV

Jer 17:4
For you have kindled a fire in My anger which shall burn forever."
NKJV

Sounds a lot like “everlasting fire” to me. Yet this is talking about the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC, not the final judgment.


Unquenchable fire

Jer 17:26-27
27 But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."
NKJV

Jer 21:11-12
11 "And concerning the house of the king of Judah, say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, 12 O house of David! Thus says the LORD:

"Execute judgment in the morning;
And deliver him who is plundered
Out of the hand of the oppressor,
Lest My fury go forth like fire
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings.
NKJV

Ezek 20:47-49
"Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. 48 All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched." ' " 49 Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! They say of me, 'Does he not speak parables?' "
NKJV

Does that language sound familiar? (see Mark 9)


Here’s some more interesting parallels:

Destroying body and soul

Isa 10:16-18
16 Therefore the Lord, the Lord of hosts,
Will send leanness among his fat ones;
And under his glory
He will kindle a burning
Like the burning of a fire.
17 So the Light of Israel will be for a fire,
And his Holy One for a flame;
It will burn and devour
His thorns and his briers in one day.
18 And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field,
Both soul and body;
And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.
NKJV


Striking similarity to:

Matt 10:28-29
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
NKJV

Could Jesus be making a veiled reference about the nation here? I think it’s at least possible.


Burning unfruitful vegetation in fire

Isa 27:10-11
10 Yet the fortified city will be desolate,
The habitation forsaken and left like a wilderness;
There the calf will feed, and there it will lie down
And consume its branches.
11 When its boughs are withered, they will be broken off;
The women come and set them on fire.
NKJV

compare to:

John 15:6-7
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
NKJV

This is prophetic style language often used against nations, and one of Jesus’ missions was to announce impending judgment upon apostate Israel.


Jer 11:14-16
14 "So do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry out to Me because of their trouble.

15 "What has My beloved to do in My house,
Having done lewd deeds with many?
And the holy flesh has passed from you.
When you do evil, then you rejoice.
16 The LORD called your name,
Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit.
With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it,
And its branches are broken.
NKJV

This passage sounds kind of like Romans 11 doesn’t it?



One more example from the life of David:

Look at how David describes his deliverance from Saul (past tense). (echoed in Ps 18)

2 Sam 22:8-13
8 "Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
NKJV


Anyway, this post is already too long so I’ll stop there.

The next installment will look at the word “everlasting” and it's possible uses in original language.

Bye for now.

[Josh]

Chris,

Just in the way of clarification:

So, you're zeroing in here on Matthew 25:41, right? In that verse, it is said that the wicked will go into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. According to your line of argument, then, are you saying that those judged in AD 70 would be going to the same eventual destiny of the devil (at the end of the millenium)? Basically, they'd be heading there before the devil?

Can you give a summary of the implications of those OT passages from your perspective, or are you waiting to do that after focusing on "eternal"/ "everlasting"?

BTW, here's one Matthew reference to fire that I think is obviously linked to AD 70:

Matthew 22:1-7

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

[christopher]

Yeah, I am zeroing in on that verses and yes it does kind of depend on the next half of this thought which I plan to prepare soon.

But the short of it is that if "everlasting fire" is synonomous with certain "divine judgment" (as I suspect it may be), then we don't need to see this as a final judgment per se, but simply a judgment from God. The Devil and his angels are certainly reserved for that type of certain judgment (Jude vs. 6). In other words, it's a source or qualitative thing rather than a durative thing.

The other possibility of course is that the judgment itself is a final and permanent destruction of the nation of Israel.

But I can't do justice to that without giving a lot more information that I'm not yet prepared to give at this point.

[christopher]

I know I was focusing mainly on the OT to support my arguments, but I almost left out this very important and relevant NT verse.

Jude 7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
KJV

The words in the Greek are identical to Matt 25:41....

puros (fire) aiooniou (eternal).

Of course we know that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, but their judgment was eternal (from God) and final in that those cities are now extinct.

[christopher]

Eternal, Everlasting, meanings of Aion.

Ok, as far as I can see, there are 4 possible understandings of the term “everlasting fire” in this passage.

1. A place called “hell” or the “Lake of Fire” (Rev 20) where people are tormented forever and ever after the final judgement (eternal torment view). This is the most common understanding.

2. Same as #1, but the fire actually consumes the individual and he/she is annihilated from existence, making the judgment “everlasting” in the sense that it’s permanent and irreversible.

3. Same as #2, except that Jesus using metaphorical language to describe the permanent destruction of Israel as a nation. So then the “fire” represents God’s judgment on the nation (see my previous post), and the “everlasting” is describing it’s permanence.

4. “everlasting fire” and “everlasting judgment” are actually speaking of the source or type of the calamity that befalls the goats. In other words, it’s a divine judgment and is speaking of it coming from the hand of God and not necessarily saying anything about it’s duration.

I lean towards either #3 or #4. I think #3 is probably the easiest of the two to rest on, but I’ll focus more on #4 because it’s much more difficult to demonstrate. It might be easier if I read the commentaries of those scholars (much smarter than I) who hold this view, but I have fun trying it on my own first. Buckle up, it gets rather bumpy.

First of all, what is the source word for our English word “eternal” or “everlasting” in our bible? There 3 words commonly used in the NT:

NT:165 (used 125 times)
aion (ahee-ohn'); from the same as NT:104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):

KJV - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-] ever, (beginning of the while the) world (began, without end). Compare NT:5550.


NT:166 (used 72 times)
aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):

KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


NT:126 (used 3 times)
aidios (ah-id'-ee-os); from NT:104; everduring (forward and backward, or forward only):

KJV - eternal, everlasting.


The first thing to notice here is that these words have a few different normative English translations from the original language. Eternal, everlasting, forever are definitely good interpretations of the word. But words like world, began, age, and course are also used.

For example:

Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [aiooni], neither in the world [aiooni] to come.
KJV

For our ears, the word “age” might fit better than “world” here, and it would be a valid translation of the word ‘aioonion’.


Matt 13:22 (parallel in Mark 4:19)
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world [aioonos], and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
KJV

“World” fits pretty good here, but you can see that neither of these passages would accommodate “eternal” very well. There is dozens more examples like this in the NT if anyone cares to look them up.

One interesting example is this:

2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world[aioonos] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
KJV

Satan is the “god of this eternity”? Of course not, he’s the de facto self-appointed god of this “age” because sinful people do his bidding by default.

The main point here is that when we come across the word “eternal” or “everlasting” it is derived from the exact same word that is elsewhere translated something else (course, world, age, etc.). That should cause us to at least consider (question?) some of the places where it’s translated “eternal”.

Ok Chris, that’s fine, but it still doesn’t make a case for your weird viewpoint described in example #4.

You’re right, and that’s where it gets kind of bumpy. Ready?

There are more than a few cases in the NT where it the word aioonion seems to be referring more to a quality rather than duration. In other words, I think the English word for “eternal” could easily be replaced with “divine” or “infinite” in these statements. Here are a few:

Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
NKJV

2 Cor 4:16-17
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory
NKJV

Eph 3:8-12
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
NKJV

1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV


The contrast here is that one type (blood of bulls and goats) purifies the flesh somehow, whereas another type (blood of God Himself v.12) cleanses the conscience. The blood of Christ (God in the flesh, through the “eternal Spirit” (divine Spirit a.k.a. God) is the only thing that cleanses our conscience from dead works.

Also, His divine glory is infinite….

1 Peter 5:10-11
10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
NKJV



I think 1 John is an amazing book to bring this point out.

1 John 1:1-2
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us
NKJV

Jesus here is referred to as “eternal life” that was “with the Father” (compare with John 1:1) and “manifested” to the apostles. It’s possible that many of the references in the NT to “eternal life” could be describing the type of life that only God alone possesses (see 1Tim 6:16) and that we are partakers of when we are in Christ. The life is “everlasting” in that God is “everlasting” and while we are in Christ, our life is “everlasting” as well because it’s actually His life that is in us. Check out what John says later in the book:

1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
NKJV

What an odd way to speak of “eternal life” under the normal paradigm of the phrase. I would suggest that this “eternal life” that abides in a person is Christ Himself or at least is in Christ. That is how “eternal life” is able to abide in us. This is further strengthened later on in the book:

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
NKJV

So God has given us “eternal life”, but it’s not our own, the life itself is “in His Son”.

Also:

1 John 5:20-21
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NKJV

So Jesus is both the “true God” and “eternal life”. He, or what is in Him is a type of life called “eternal life”. Again, what if we replaced that word with “divine”? It would essentially say the same thing IMO.

Now in my little pea brain, if “eternal life” can be a type of life that refers to its source (like a “divine life”), then it’s also possible that “eternal judgment” can be a type of judgment that refers to its source…(i.e. God Himself) and not necessarily a duration.

I won’t go to the mat for that viewpoint, but either one of those possibilities (#3 or #4) work for my own view of this passage speaking of a divine judgment upon the nation of Israel in 70AD.

As an aside, the church historian Eusebius records that ALL of the Christians got out of Jerusalem prior to the seige.


"The Christians of Jerusalem, remembering the Lord’s admonition, forsook the doomed city in good time and fled to the town of Pella in the Decapolis, beyond the Jordan, in the north of Peraea, where king Herod Agrippa II., before whom Paul once stood, opened to them a safe asylum. An old tradition says that a divine voice or angel revealed to their leaders the duty of flight. There, in the midst of a population chiefly Gentile, the church of the circumcision was reconstructed."

-History of the church, Vol 1, Ch 6.39


In my opinion, God indeed separated the sheep (the church) from the goats (apostate Israel). The sheep (covenant nation called the church) are alive to this day, and the goats (covenant nation of Israel) is still, and forever will be, extinct.

[christopher]

Josh,

Thanks for loaning me the Ancient Commentary on Scripture. What a great idea and an incredible resource!! I love it. ;D

One thing I noticed though was that all of the commentaries from these passages come from 4th century ECF's or later (Chrysostom, Epiphanius, Augustine, etc.). And the only one that wrote on eternal punishment in the sheep and goats parable was Epiphanius.

For me, the later ECF's don't carry as much weight as the earlier ones because they are further removed from the source language and culture. I don't think any of these guys were Jews if I'm not mistaken. I also think a lot of these guys were influenced (in some measure) by their Platonic backgrounds, especially Augustine who was a Manichean before he was a Christian.

I would be very interested in reading commentary on this passage from the Jewish ECF's (if those commentaries existed), especially since Matthew was written to a Jewish audience. I think they would be better versed in Jewish apocalyptic literature to discern the symbolic nature of that style of poetry.

[Josh]

True, true. Earlier would make a much better case either way. Unfortunately, I don't think any earlier commentaries on these passages are extant.

However, you know, I do seem to recall reading in Clement about the "virgins". I'll have to double check that.

My assumption is that the ACCS is exhaustive, but I can't remember if that's totally accurate.'/.