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Post by Josh on Dec 12, 2009 18:41:06 GMT -8
Despite the fact that I've often seen a lot of exaggeration among Christians as to threats to religious freedom in our country, I think there are some concerning trends that need to be addressed.
And while I'm much more open to discussion and consideration of gay rights in a secularized society, I am extremely disturbed by attempts to limit religious freedom in the following actual cases reportedly discussed on NPR May 20, 2009:
- A Methodist organization lost its tax exempt status for refusing to allow a gay ceremony in their privately owned pavilion
-Catholic adoption agencies were shut down for refusing to place children with gay couples
-A religious university was forced to allow same-sex couples to live in their dormatories
-A Boy Scouts organization was denied access to a publicly owned building because they refused to endorse homosexuality
-A Christian photographer was fined $6000 for declining to photograph a gay ceremony
I think these are blatant examples of infringement on religious liberty. I curious what others think- I'm especially curious if I would find agreement among those who identify themselves as part of the gay community. Am I crazy to think that even those who champion gay rights would see these examples as unfair?
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Post by rbbailey on Dec 13, 2009 0:28:23 GMT -8
We can't expect it to last forever.
In fact, I've long believed that America cannot exist as it does and has if the end times are ever going to occur.
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Post by christopher on Dec 13, 2009 8:28:07 GMT -8
So, my questions would be:
1. Why do you think they need to be addressed?
2. Who should address them?
3. In what manner should they be addressed?
I agree that the examples you cited are unfair. But Jesus told His disciples to expect that, so we shouldn't be surprised if it happens to our generation.
I've often said that Christianity in the west (Europe, US, etc) could use a bit of persecution to jump start the sleepy movement once again. History agrees.
I say that with fear and trembling, to be quite honest, because I don't want that for myself or my family. But if it be God's will for His people to suffer a little fire in order to refine them, I say let it be done.
rbbailey wrote:
Why do say that?
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Post by Josh on Dec 13, 2009 8:45:51 GMT -8
Chris and rbbailey,
I also see persecution as a potentially refining process, but I think that since we live in a democracy, it is our job as Christians to promote a Biblically-informed just society. This is not the time to throw in the towel on issues like this.
I'm usually the last person to take a hard stand on politics. But in this case, which impinges on the freedom of religion, I think it's worth addressing through information sharing, voting, and attempts to engage the public on the subject.
Christians are supposed to work for justice (and peace) in the world, not sit back and wait for Gog and Magog.
Can you imagine if Wilberforce had succumbed to that kind of fatalism?
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Post by rbbailey on Dec 13, 2009 20:15:04 GMT -8
Well, don't get me wrong, I was simply making the statement, not stating a thesis of action.
I do not believe a strong, Constitutional America would abide a one-world government, a single ruler, etc, etc.... it just won't work as long as America is in the picture. When America whimpers to its end, that will be when an anti-christ can actually do his work.
Again, I'm no wacko, I'm not calling for action to hasten the day! No, I simply believe it will turn out the way it is going to turn out. In the mean time, I will do what Christians are called to do: spread the word and love of Jesus Christ.
In my own life, I've had to sort of release my love for America in the way one releases an idol to replace it with the one true God.
I'm also very sensitive to the way non-Christians view Christians in politics. I really think it is one of the major, if not the one, sticking points people have with Christianity. And hey, we don't want to mix politics and religion either, but some do, and most of the secular world is extremely sensitive to that. Therefore, I really try to keep my politics and faith in two worlds (Luther). Not that one does not influence the other, but I'm just very careful so I don't make a bad impression, and so that the bad impressions of others don't get projected onto Christians any more than humanly possible.
When it comes to arguing against religious persecution in this county, I will be careful to do it on behalf of all belief systems, and to do it from a strict Constitutional point of view.
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Post by christopher on Dec 13, 2009 21:07:59 GMT -8
Well, Wilburforce fought for basic inalienable human rights. And it was a very Christian thing to do. But, it didn't take a Christian to do it. The cause could have just as likely been taken on by an Hindu, Buddhist, or even an atheist. It only takes compassion and a sense of justice to get behind that issue. I wouldn't necessary lump freedom of religion in that same category though. Although I believe and agree with freedom of religion, it cannot a blank check. Every society decides where it's going to draw the line. It's likely that ours will continue to move that line depending on the cultural barometer. It matters not though, Christians are not called to defend our own rights as far as I can tell from scripture. When you think about it, Christianity is a subversive ideology to any government that is not expressly Christian. It's adherents have only one legitimate allegiance, and it's to another King. Josh, you know I'm not throwing in the towel. I'll continue to exercise my vote as long as I'm allowed to. But I always get an unsettled feeling when I see Christians fighting for their "rights" in politics. Fighting for others' rights is Christian. But I'm not so sure about fighting for our own. I think it's best to take our cues from the apostles: Acts 5:41-4241 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. NKJV
They rejoiced in suffering for Christ, yet continued to obey Him only, knowing that there would be consequences. |
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Post by christopher on Dec 13, 2009 21:13:18 GMT -8
Rbbailey,
I understand now why you made the statement. It does make sense given your view of the end times.
I won't get into a debate on this thread about it*, but I'll just say at this point that I disagree with that premise. I tend to look more at the church than at governments or current events to gauge where we might be at on that time line.
*I'd be happy to discuss it on a different thread if you wish.
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Post by rbbailey on Dec 13, 2009 23:16:21 GMT -8
I'm not really sure it is my view of the end times as much as I can't imagine the end times happening before the world looses the force for freedom and liberty that America is. Everything about the tribulation and pain and anti-Christ is about loosing freedom and self-determination. In this way, I'm not really talking about a time-line, but more of a condition of humanity as a whole before it all hits the fan.
I agree with you, we can't look at current events as signs -- as so many others have erroneously done countless times before us. But I think we can look at them as symptoms of the overall condition of the world in comparison with where the world will need to be when those end times come.
I would be very interested at hearing about your gauge of the church in relation to end times theology.
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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2009 9:00:02 GMT -8
I think what Chris is referring to is that some of us don't even expect a future anti-christ, being more of partial-preterist ilk. You can find several threads on this on the eschatology sub-folder on the Other Topics sub-forum.
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Post by christopher on Dec 14, 2009 9:34:27 GMT -8
Yes, that is what I'm referring to.
I don't see the bible saying there will be a future tribulation or anti-christ, etc. for our vantage point.
I believe what God is waiting for is the maturity of the Church (Eph 4) into the thing that He intends it to be and it's within our collective power to "hasten" that day (2Pet 3)....we're getting there. It may not seem like it, but I think there are demonstrable indicators to that if you look at the whole of church history and compare it to where we are today. We have a long way to go.
Let me not digress further on this thread. Check out the eschatology sub-forum or we can open another thread.
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Post by marcus on Dec 14, 2009 17:03:22 GMT -8
I also see persecution as a potentially refining process, but I think that since we live in a democracy, it is our job as Christians to promote a Biblically-informed just society. This is not the time to throw in the towel on issues like this. I'm usually the last person to take a hard stand on politics. But in this case, which impinges on the freedom of religion, I think it's worth addressing through information sharing, voting, and attempts to engage the public on the subject. Christians are supposed to work for justice (and peace) in the world, not sit back and wait for Gog and Magog. No, Josh, no! Excellent job identifying a problem, but I think you're forgetting our calling. The fact that we live in a democracy should have no bearing on our approach. We don't work for justice and peace through politics. We have to change people's minds. Making it illegal to persecute Christians won't stop persecution, and fighting persecution is a contradiction. And losing tax-exempt status is just what Christians need. I'm tired of the government accepting the actions of our churches. The government should absolutely disapprove of our actions, or we're doing everything wrong. The trend you described is good. Christians should be at odds with this society. When push comes to shove, we fight by offering an alternative to society's modus operandi. If we don't believe in gay marriage, our first act is to withdraw the term from the public realm. Marriage never should have been recognized by the state. Now that it is, its definition is up for debate. BIG MISTAKE. I'm glad that communion and baptism aren't recognized by the state. Our sacraments are sacred. Why should they be placed in a secular realm? Seriously, we live in a culture that values the opinion of the majority. If that aint the opposite of Christianity, I don't know what is. |
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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2009 18:55:02 GMT -8
Ah!!!! The two sides of my brain are engaged in a bloody civil war!!!!
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Post by marcus on Dec 14, 2009 22:07:50 GMT -8
May the redeemed side be the victor!
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Post by rbbailey on Dec 15, 2009 9:41:15 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Dec 15, 2009 16:58:47 GMT -8
Of course the main job of the Christian is to change minds, but Scripture says the divine purpose of government is to restrain and punish evil (Romans 13:1-7)
According to Scripture, here's what a government that pleases God will look like:
Romans 13:3
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer
If God expects governments to operate this way, and if we live in a democratic republic in which in some way we are all part of the "government", then it is incumbent upon us to do our part to encourage a just civil society through the means of government as well as as citizens of the higher kingdom.
Tax exemption allows people the ability to give more. It is an extra gift from the state. Only recently has our government attempted to attach strings to exemptions by trying to encourage churches to be considered coroporations. But if a church doesn't register as a 501-c3, they do not have to be considered a corporation but may still grant tax exemptions to donations while still enjoying their Constitutional freedom from the attached "strings". This freedom may not last long if not defended, however.
Not according to Romans 13:3-4, again:
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer
Our government has actually done us good by granting tax exemptions.
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Post by Josh on Dec 15, 2009 17:33:15 GMT -8
Another verse I think is relevant: 1 Timothy 2:1-3 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,It isn't a bad thing to live in peace with one's government as long as we aren't compromising our faith. Regarding the question of whether persecution is always good for the church, I've started a separate thread that I'd like to hear your input on as well: aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=historyboard&action=display&thread=2677&page=1 |
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Post by krhagan19 on Dec 15, 2009 20:07:16 GMT -8
We elected an extreme gay rights President. The majority has spoken. Whether we like it or not, our task is to win the hearts and minds of most Americans. The Constitution is only as important as those who support it. Things we consider important are not supported by the document, among these are Public Schools, Public Libraries, and gay rights. All of these are used via Legislative interpretation. If you look a the Constitution you will find that many Federal programs violate our fundamental rights that those not innumerated in the Constitution are reserved to the states and the people respectively. We may not like, but that is the reality of our situation.
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