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Post by yeshuafreak on Dec 2, 2009 16:36:43 GMT -8
Here is a thread from my forum. The forum is a messianic jewish one, so the terms may be a little wierd to some who are not acquanted with them.
But i thought it might make for an interesting discussion:
Apart from 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,' the Sabbath is another subject theologians wonder about; Yeshua seemed to break it multiple times. On top of that, the controversy on whether or not it is permitted to heal on the Sabbath has not been settled between Jews, and 'New Testement' religions.
Many Jews say healing is not permitted on the Sabbath, though even the Talmud says otherwise. Christians formulated the anti-nomos theory (the proposition that Yeshua came and abolished the law, a direct contradiction of Mt 5:17-18). Islam does not worry about this.
Here are my thoughts on the matter:
Yeshua taught that on the sabbath, you should give freedom. This freedom is the rest spoken of in Torah. The sabbath is about freeing others, which gives rest. There are a few sabbaths: jubillee, the sabbatical year, and the sabbatical week. The year of Jubilee is a year of freedom. People are freed from slavery, and debts are forgotten. On the sabbatical year a similar thing happens.
It may also be interesting to note that Yeshua said 'i preach the acceptable year of the Lord (4:17-20).' Theologians believe that This is a reference to the year of Jubilee.
All of the sabbaths are symbols of freedom. When the weekly sabbath was perverted to be legalistic, Yeshua came down and straightened it out.
Note also: Yeshua was crucified on a year of Jubilee.
Yeshua is our freedom. He came to free the 'captivity captive.(eph 4:8-10)' Where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom.
Barukh Yeshua,
John
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Post by yeshuafreak on Dec 2, 2009 16:37:57 GMT -8
Just to clarify: when i say "christians" i am speaking of the original catholic doctrine, not all the break off groups in protestantism.
shalom
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Post by Josh on Dec 7, 2009 21:00:58 GMT -8
Two things:
1) How do you know that Jesus was crucified on a year of Jubilee. If that is well documented, I'd like to know (that would be pretty cool)
2) I believe that as a result of Jesus' sacrifice, all those who follow Him have entered into the Sabbath rest once and for all. It's not that Jesus abolished the Sabbath- it's that he made our every day a Sabbath of rest
I think this is what Paul was conveying in Colossians 2:16-17:
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
The shadow was the weekly Sabbath, the reality is the Sabbath rest of God that we who follow Jesus now permanently reside in.
I think this is what the author of Hebrews also meant when he wrote:
Hebrews 4:4-11
For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
What does this mean regarding Saturdays (or Sundays)? Well, I think the New Testament's almost complete lack of insistence on this topic, coupled with Paul's comments above, means that it's a matter of individual conscience.
But the greater reality is that because of Christ's sacrifice, we can enter the rest Today- on any day of the week.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Dec 14, 2009 17:48:21 GMT -8
it really all depends on what year he was crucified in. It could be as early as 27 AD and as late as 35 AD. so we dont know for sure, but the comments the gospel writers wrote make it seem as if him being crucified on jubilee is at least a theologoumenon.
i actually think that the lack of insistance indicates that nothing changed concerning sunday. if they day had changed, do you not think there would be some level of turmoil? i think it would be as big as the circumcision problem, which was mentioned alot. If you havent read the aprocraphal texts (which i am sure you have) you will notice that people like ignatius and clement and church fathers like irenaes emphasized sunday as the day of worship- this is becuase there was debate about it! where there are no questions, there are no answers and that is why the NT is silent on the topic.
john
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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2009 18:32:08 GMT -8
First, just a note that the writings of the church fathers are not apocrypha.
Just as the Church was later rigid about it being Sunday, the Judaizers were likewise rigid. I believe Paul is saying that it isn't a big deal- thus almost complete silence in the NT.
And the reason I don't think there was much contention on the issue was exactly the reason I cited- the early believers probably worshipped on both Saturday (in the synagogue or Temple) and Sunday (in the homes of Christians), so it was a bit moot! ;D
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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2009 18:34:37 GMT -8
Do we even know when the year of Jubilee was in the early first century?
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Post by yeshuafreak on Dec 15, 2009 15:45:33 GMT -8
that is why i said "and the church fathers"-- seperate from the apocrypha
count backwards from the year of jubilee now. we still celebrate it you know? (of course, you would have to take into account some of the calender changes and stuff, but we can at least make approximate dates)
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Post by Josh on Dec 15, 2009 17:44:04 GMT -8
But Clement and Ignatius* aren't apocrypha either.
No, I didn't know. Is there an unbroken tradition of celebrating Jubilees since Moses? Or how else would you know which years are the right ones? Or did the tradition re-start at various times in Jewish history?
*although some books attributed to Ignatius aren't authentic.
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Post by Josh on Dec 15, 2009 17:45:20 GMT -8
So, what do Jews today do on the year of Jubilee? Do all Jews (messianic or otherwise) accept the same year? Has there been one recently? Did you free all your servants?
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Post by Josh on Sept 4, 2011 16:27:37 GMT -8
I've been reading through Scripture and the Authority of God by N.T. Wright. At the end of it, he has a whole chapter on understanding the Sabbath as a New Testament believer (as a test example of his perspective on understanding Scripture). It is absolutely the best treatment on the subject I have ever seen. If I have time, I'll post some highlights. But I'd like to do a teaching on it sometime.
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Post by stevekimes on Sept 4, 2011 21:49:52 GMT -8
I haven't read that Wright book. I'll have to check it out. From the library.
The deal about the sabbath, from my perspective, is this:
The sabbath is significant for Jewish believers who become Christians. They are still working with the law and making proper applications with it. The most important thing Jesus has to teach is that all the law is to be interpreted by mercy and if one uses the merciful law to judge others, they are doing it wrong.
However, most of us were born gentiles. The only law we have to be concerned about is the law of love: loving God and loving each other. The sabbath is a good guideline, but it is no kind of a law we should be concerned about. From a gentile perspective "every day is the same", and that's all good. Some may hold to a sabbath, and that's all good. Some may hold to a Sunday "sabbath" or a Saturday Sabbath, and that's all good, as long as they are serving the same Lord. But if we use these differences as an excuse to judge other followers of Jesus (or claim they are or are not a part of the "true" church) then we are denying the very law we are trying to follow.
"Go and learn this: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' "
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Post by Josh on Sept 5, 2011 14:20:58 GMT -8
Steve, are u saying that Jewish Christians should continue to follow the letter of the Torah? Or just as a temporary or voluntary bridge between the old and new covenants?
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Post by matthew on Oct 21, 2013 20:48:24 GMT -8
Great thread guys, I enjoying seeing this topic have some light and thought shed on it. I'm currently "agnostic" on this subject of the Sabbath but want to continue to dig until the Holy Spirit and I are on the same page in this temple (as in our bodies are the of His Spirit). I have several Messianic friends who follow the Sabbath on Saturday but are not rigid or judgemental of others. The love I see in their community is to be envied for sure (in a good way, they set a high example of loving fellowship).
I am clear as to the value of the Sabbath and taking one day of not only rest, but turning one's attention toward Christ and making a day holy in the week. To me, this is a sabbath day's rest, not simply abstaining from normal work but recalibrating the soul one day a week. As to which day that is, the arguements I've heard for it having to fall on a Saturday are weak IMO. Yes, traditionally Saturday is the Hebrew Sabbath but does the LORD really care which day of the week it is? I've heard arguements that Sunday was a Catholic invention or that Constantine shifted the day of worship to Sunday to appease the sun worshippers of the day. All completely irrelevant today (again IMO).
That all said, I have to admit that I did feel a genuine conviction not too long ago that I've never really kept a Sabbath as described above, even on Sunday! The LORD (I assume it was Him, because neither myself nor the devil would have directed this thought) wanted me to keep one day holy a week and truly not work, but intentionally seek Him. Ideally this would be every day, but I'm not independently wealthy and my job demands focused attention and time most days.
Other questions begin to arrise from this Sabbath discussion. Why are 9 of the 10 commandments never questioned but the Sabbath overlooked by nearly all of the Western Church? What did Paul mean when he said in Christ there is neither slave, nor free, male nor female, Jew or Gentile, etc. ? Is it possible that both Messianic style worshippers and Sunday going evangelicals are both following the Messiah? Perhaps the body of Christ is as diverse as our many denominations and idosyncrisies and expected to love one another and accept each other "as is" without fighting over differences that are not critical (by critical I mean essential Christian theology and belief).
Well, I hope to plug in more to these discussions as time and opportunity allow. Thanks for reading my thoughts and I look forward to reading yours soon.
Blessings in Yeshua Christ, Matthew
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Post by Josh on Oct 22, 2013 10:28:04 GMT -8
I am clear as to the value of the Sabbath and taking one day of not only rest, but turning one's attention toward Christ and making a day holy in the week. To me, this is a sabbath day's rest, not simply abstaining from normal work but recalibrating the soul one day a week. I have to admit that I did feel a genuine conviction not too long ago that I've never really kept a Sabbath as described above, even on Sunday! The LORD (I assume it was Him, because neither myself nor the devil would have directed this thought) wanted me to keep one day holy a week and truly not work, but intentionally seek Him. Ideally this would be every day, but I'm not independently wealthy and my job demands focused attention and time most days. Some thoughts: Although I think a day a week to "recalibrate" makes a lot of sense, are you sure that Scripture is teaching the need for it? If, like I hold (tenatively, to be sure), EVERY day is now the Sabbath, wouldn't that mean that every day should be "recalibration day"? I have wondered this too, but IF the Sabbath is not in the New Covenant one day a week, but EVERY day, then one could say the Church (when teaching rightly) is still upholding the Sabbath commmandment.
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Post by Josh on Jul 6, 2015 23:08:25 GMT -8
A couple points in defense of the idea that every day is now the Sabbath in the kingdom of God. 1. Hebrews 4 says "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." What is this Sabbath that Hebrews is talking about? It's definitely not a 24-hr period. It is the rest that God has been enjoying since the original creation week. So, therefore, it has been an epoch-long rest. And when we come to enter into it, we enter into it for good: it becomes an unending Sabbath. 2. "Jesus fulfilled the law. In some cases this means the letter of the law is now abrogated/ no longer necessary to follow (ritual sacrifice being a clear example). Some see the Sabbath in this light, but that's not satisfactory to me. In other cases fulfilling the law meant actually expanding it (as in Jesus' "you have heard it said, but I say" sayings), and I think it's likely that the author of Hebrews is saying that the "shadow" of Sabbath stipulated as day 7 of the week is now fulfilled in the entire epoch of the Kingdom of God. In this way the Sabbath laws are not abrogated but rather expanded. Read more: aletheia.proboards.com/thread/3414/7th-day-creation-end?page=1#ixzz3fBeo873J
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