Have you seriously asked this question?

[Josh]

Originally posted 12/05:

Just curious if any of you have ever asked yourself seriously whether God really does exist?

[aimee]

Originally posted 2/25/06:

Hi there,

I am new to all this, but I want to post to questions that are really pertinent in my own life.

I grew up in a Christian household with parents deeply commited to Jesus... however much of my early faith was only based on what they told me and what I wanted to believe was true.

During High School I had some teachers who I really respected for their knowledge and for their interest in learning. They taught me to not take things I had been taught for granted, but to search for the truth for myself, because belief is groundless if it doesn't contain truth. And you should never base what you believe on what someone else has told you, you need to question everything and believe what rings true. These teachers were not Christians and yet I could see that there was truth to what they said...

I needed a solid reason to believe what I did and not just because I wished it, I needed to be certian... See ~Heb 11:1~

So from all my scripture reading I realized that if God is real, he really cares that I do believe in him and if he really cares, he would reveal himself to me if I sought him. ~Jeremiah 29:13&14~.

So, one summer (at Jesus Northwest) I was having a lot of inner conflict. I decided I didn't want to be believing a lie (what greater lie than dissolutioning yourself about an all powerful being and basing your life on it) Earlier in my Christianity I had drummed up feelings of God and got carried away by emotions at youth conferences and things. These were all short lived and empty... there was no depth...

So I decided then and there at Jesus Northwest that believing in God was no good if it wasn't true and I wanted nothing to do with drummed up Christianity...

I said to myself that no God was better than fake God and I decided to throw the question "God are you out there" into the universe and see if anyone answered.

I think the reason he answered me then was because I was being honest, and openly seeking the truth not trying to 'work up' belief, and not disbelieving, but really being open to his answer if there was one.

I felt a sudden presence that was deep and real in my soul saying 'I am' ~Exodus 3:14~ It was real and it changed my life and perspective. The changes in my life were gradual, but lasting. I threw out all pre-conceptions about what I had been taught about God and sought to build my belief from the ground up. I searched for the truth from the Bible, bouncing my findings off of people I knew who showed signs of God's fruit in their lives.

Since then I have had many miracles come about in my life and many revelations of his presence in my well-being. These all grow my faith and confidence in him.

So basically this is really wordy, but searching for the truth about God has never proved fruitless in my life.

[Josh]

Originally posted 2/26/06:

Wow, Aimee.

I love testimonies. So different and yet so many common strands.

The first part (growing up Christian and then being influenced to seek after objective truth) rings almost identically to my experience, except for me it was my atheist grandfather who exerted the most influence on me toward the pursuit of truth. It's funny how some of the best lessons we can learn are often taught us by people who don't believe. That reminds me of CS Lewis' atheist tutor who he credits with the same kind of accolades (I think he called him the Great Knock, or something like that?).

Ah, Jesus Northwest... that's a blast from the past. I wonder what year it was when all this was going on with you, 'cuase I was going through alot of this kind of stuff in the early 90's myself.

I've posted a kind of version of my own experience which can be found on the articles page of the website under the heading "The Story" (and I think it's also in the Share Your Journey section). Although not necessarily a 'testimony', it highlights similar themes in my own life. Like you, my coming to fuller faith in God involved a combo of reason and transcendant experience.

That's the mark of truth in Christianity: it doesn't deny either, in fact, it encourages us to reason and seek God's very real presence.

Question: what were some of your biggest doubts or obstacles to faith?

[rose]

Originally posted 2/26/06:

Thanks so much for sharing your journey to find God for yourself. I can relate very much to having beliefs that were passed down to me, and not searching for truth for myself. I can also relate to trips to Jesus Northwest, and the emotions/thoughts that came along with those festivals. I'm so glad that your search proved worthwile. Thanks again for sharing...

[Josh]

Originally posted 2/27/06:

Just a follow up question. What would you say to those people who feel like they have thrown the "God, are You there?" question, but haven't experienced any perceivable reply?

[aimee]

Originally posted 3/10/06:

What I would say to someone who hasn’t had a response from God

Prologue
Hi there, well I thought about your question long and hard and I discovered it was a much more difficult question than I had anticipated at first So, I spent several days in research and prayer and talking it over with my husband. Which seems like a lot for a mere post, but this stuff is really important it seems, because I just can’t get it out of my head. So here is my take, please forgive errors, both grammatical and theological.

To Begin

Logically if we are seeking weather the God of the Bible is true or not, we should look at what He says about how to go about finding him. By following these we will see if he is there.


Jeremiah 29:13&14
“You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back from captivity.”

From this verse we can conclude:
a. You have to care with all your heart if you find an answer. It is not seeking out of nonchalance, it is earnestly seeking the truth of the matter because you care about what is true.

b. He says he will be found by you if you are earnestly seeking him

c.He does not specify how he will show himself to you.

Other verses containing God’s promise to be found if you seek him:

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you…”

2 Chronicles 15:2
“…’Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.”

Proverbs 8:17
“I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.”

Hebrews 11:6
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”

2 Chronicles 30:18-20
“…..But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, ‘May the Lord, who is good, pardon everyone who sets his heart on seeking God-the Lord, the God of his fathers-even if he is not clean according to the rules of the sanctuary.” And the Lord heard Hezekiah and healed the people.
a. (God cleanses the sin of those who earnestly seek him so they can be near him)

Matthew 7:7
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. ‘Which of you, if his son asks for bread will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!”


How do we seek him?

Isaiah 55:6
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.”

1.When you feel the urge to seek God, don’t wait
2.Turn from evil thoughts and actions
(this done through confession to Jesus in prayer to him)

Isaiah 55:8
“ ‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the Lord. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.’”
3.Be humble enough to realize that God does things differently and better than we could.
4.Don’t try to outguess what he has in store for you


Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” “Come to me, all you who are wary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
(pray to Jesus, confess sins to him and follow what his teachings are)
5. Seek him through Jesus, our mediator

Psalm 46:10
“Be still and know that I am God;..”
6. quiet your hear so you can hear him speak



Psalm 27:13
“I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.”
7. Wait

Isaiah 30:18
“Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the Lord is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!”
8. Wait


Ways God reveals himself to people:

The Bible is filled with examples of God revealing himself to people. There are many different methods and he will select the right one for each person. They are not of our choosing.

I remember once when I was very small I asked him for the power to walk on water. I didn’t receive it so I felt slightly hurt by God. Now that I have walked a little bit more with God and read much more in scripture, I realize the powers and revelations he gives us are of his choosing and many times are not what we were looking for. However they are the best choices for us.
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Postscript:

Sometimes I didn’t feel like I had the strength to seek out the truth, or the knowledge of how to explain the truth to others if I did.

I think during these times God was working something else in my life (like perseverance). But anyway during these times God showed me a great truth to cling to …. And he did it through a children’s book

The Witch:
‘Come, all of you. Put away these childish tricks. I have work for you all in the real world. There is no Narnia, no overworld, no sky, no sun, no Aslan.’
………..

Puddleglum:
‘Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one.’
……..

Puddleglum:
‘I’m on Aslans’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it.’

John 20:29 “ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I think sometimes we need to follow just because we know it’s right, not because we understand or can prove anything…

Luke 18:16 “But Jesus called the children to him and said, ‘Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

[sarah]

Originally posted 3/10/06:

Hi Aimee!

What a beautifully thought out response. I love some of those verses you shared. I especially love Jeremiah 29:13&14
"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back from captivity."
I have certainly found that to be true of my experience of faith. The quote from Puddleglum gave me chills. "I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it."
It is funny because I was just thinking about this topic this week on my way to work. Every once in a while I have this thought that maybe there really isn't anything after this life, and that God and heaven are just myths humans have created to explain/cope with life.
It would be safe to say that intellectual reasoning is not my first response to questions of faith. I have never really attempted to reason a solution to this infrequent yet peskily repetative thought. What I do return to is a thought a little more like Puddleglum's.
I think that if it is all a lie/myth that it is a beautiful one. I would much rather believe in something larger than myself. It inspires me to reach for higher purpose and to take joy in what I am given. I believe faith helps me to be a more giving and loving person. It also gives me a place to direct all my frustration, fear, pain, and needs. Believing in a God who cares about those things and hears my prayers makes me feel less alone in them.
Now I realize that I have outlined the Athiest's "Crutch Theory" but oh well, just my thoughts.

[Josh]

Originally posted 3/11/06:

Sarah,

Your observations about Christianity's beauty, purpose, joy, etc.. in some key ways ARE an apologetic response to doubt. I wouldn't belittle the force of those. One might ask, why is it that mankind looks for those things in the first place? In fact, the thrust of one of Christianity's greatest apologists, G K Chesterton, is essentially the same: Christianity is so beautiful, explanatory, and satisfying that it MUST be true. Lewis was heavily influenced by this as well-- apparently Puddleglum, too.

Now, stated as simply as that, it looks like a weak argument, but if time permitted we could go into that reasoning and see how powerful of an argument it can be. Chesterton's book Orthodoxy is largely taken up with this idea.

I've often called his approach "intuitive apologetics". Maybe you'd like his approach more than typical apologetic fare.

"I have never really attempted to reason a solution to this infrequent yet peskily repetative thought. What I do return to is a thought a little more like Puddleglum's."

In response to this, I would just suggest that tackling the problem from more than one front is what Lewis would invite as providing the most assurance. I would just encourage you to employ your heart, mind, and soul to this occasional dilemma, because every now and then in all of us, one or two of those parts of us give out and we are left with whatever is left.

If you wanted to apply reason to the equation (and I know you're not asking for this particularly, but I think it's helpful to post here for others following along) , there are solid reasons to believe that what the disciples taught wasn't mythology, that they were eyewitnesses of actual miraculous events, and that they weren't lying. Isn't it much more reassuring to know that those men willingly died for what they claimed to be true, as opposed to profiting from it (ala Joseph Smith style)? Isn't it reassuring to know that the writings of the New Testament followed so closely after the events of Jesus' life that the chances of gross legendary development taking place are quite small? Stuff like that.

That said, the goal is never "to not doubt". The goal is to love Christ more. I guess the question is whether doubt is withering our pursuit of Christ, or sharpening its focus.

[Josh]

Originally posted 3/11/06:

"I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it"
Puddleglum

Great response.

I especially like #7 and #8. Great choice to repeat that twice. Patience is huge.

I have also found that God doesn't respond well (usually) to demands, but He does respond well when we 'cry out'.

Lewis in several of his writings points out how addicted we get to God 'showing up' in a certain way, and how God really doesn't often do things the same way twice. If He did we might get more attached to the way He shows up as opposed to whether He does or not.

It's funny because I'm teaching a Chronicles of Narnia class as an elective for my high schoolers right now, and we JUST READ that passage from the Silver Chair this week.

It's a beautiful passage and an interesting one because it somewhat veers from Lewis' usual way of talking about God's existence. It's sort of 'the apologetics of desperation'. There are times when all our intellect fails and we must walk on for a time in just simple obedience, like Puddleglum, Eustace, Jill, and Rilian.

The only thing I'd add in response to what you and Sarah are saying is a further question and comment.

I have heard Mormons admit that historical and scientific evidence flies in the face of their belief system, but they'll just keep believing anyway because Mormonism accomplishes so much good in their lives.

I personally don't think we're relegated to that position as Christians.

In fact, although I think what Lewis is saying is important at times in our walk with God, when the clouds temporarily overwhelm us, it shouldn't be the norm. There has to be a point when after sustained thought a belief just becomes untenable, or how are we ever to decide what beliefs to choose or discard, to trust in or to be wary of?

I would suggest that we should expect times when our intellect fails us- times where we must persevere in odedient but almost blind faith.

Here's an AWESOME quote from Lewis on this:

"Moods will change, whatever view your reason takes. I know that by experience. Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable. This rebellion of your moods against your real self is going to come anyway. That is why Faith is such a necessary virtu: unless you teach your mood "where they get off", you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion"

That said,if blind faith characterises our entire faith, I think there is real danger that we fall for "all winds of doctrine". Lewis defined Faith ultimately as,

"the power of continuing to believe what we once honestly thought to be true until cogent reasons for honestly changing our minds are brought before us"

The buck does stop somewhere, I think he's saying. But we shouldn't chuck our faith just because we've been temporarily blinded by green dust.

[aimee]

Originally posted 3/06:

"I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it"
Puddleglum

Great response.

I especially like #7 and #8. Great choice to repeat that twice. Patience is huge.

I have also found that God doesn't respond well (usually) to demands, but He does respond well when we 'cry out'.

Lewis in several of his writings points out how addicted we get to God 'showing up' in a certain way, and how God really doesn't often do things the same way twice. If He did we might get more attached to the way He shows up as opposed to whether He does or not.

It's funny because I'm teaching a Chronicles of Narnia class as an elective for my high schoolers right now, and we JUST READ that passage from the Silver Chair this week.

It's a beautiful passage and an interesting one because it somewhat veers from Lewis' usual way of talking about God's existence. It's sort of 'the apologetics of desperation'. There are times when all our intellect fails and we must walk on for a time in just simple obedience, like Puddleglum, Eustace, Jill, and Rilian.

The only thing I'd add in response to what you and Sarah are saying is a further question and comment.

I have heard Mormons admit that historical and scientific evidence flies in the face of their belief system, but they'll just keep believing anyway because Mormonism accomplishes so much good in their lives.

I personally don't think we're relegated to that position as Christians.

In fact, although I think what Lewis is saying is important at times in our walk with God, when the clouds temporarily overwhelm us, it shouldn't be the norm. There has to be a point when after sustained thought a belief just becomes untenable, or how are we ever to decide what beliefs to choose or discard, to trust in or to be wary of?

I would suggest that we should expect times when our intellect fails us- times where we must persevere in odedient but almost blind faith.

Here's an AWESOME quote from Lewis on this:

"Moods will change, whatever view your reason takes. I know that by experience. Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable. This rebellion of your moods against your real self is going to come anyway. That is why Faith is such a necessary virtu: unless you teach your mood "where they get off", you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion"

That said,if blind faith characterises our entire faith, I think there is real danger that we fall for "all winds of doctrine". Lewis defined Faith ultimately as,

"the power of continuing to believe what we once honestly thought to be true until cogent reasons for honestly changing our minds are brought before us"

The buck does stop somewhere, I think he's saying. But we shouldn't chuck our faith just because we've been temporarily blinded by green dust.

[hume]

Originally posted 3/06:

Famous atheist Bertrand Russell once wrote (in an essay called "A Free Man's Worship"):

"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; ... and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built."

For a philosopher, Russell could be quite eloquent. Note his reliance on poetic flourishes in this passage ("beyond the grave," "the whole temple of Man's achievement," "debris of a universe in ruins," "firm foundation of unyielding despair," etc.). It's well-articulated, emotionally powerful stuff. But isn't he cheating here? He's calling on our innate sense of tragedy, of despair at the sight of injustice; he's playing on our deepest fears in the service of what he wants us to take to be an unflinching, objective, unemotional assessment of the nature of reality. In other words, he's trying to have it both ways. Supposedly beginning from an objective view of life as inherently meaningless (primarily in the sense that, ultimately, justice will not, cannot, be served), he then wants to infuse that vision with a sense of tragic beauty, of courage in the face of despair. But this move is an utterly subjective leap. After removing the very basis for our sense of tragedy, he wants to use it as an emotional prop for his position. On the contrary, our sense of tragedy is a problem for his belief; it's hard to see how or why we would have this profound concern for justice, if indeed the universe around us is in no sense a just place. We arose here -- why would we be so poorly suited to this place?

When CS Lewis has the character Puddleglum state: "I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it," he is essentially putting Russell in his place. Russell's position parallels Puddleglum: he's on the side of justice, even though he doesn't believe that reality aligns with it. Of course, Puddleglum isn't really affirming atheism -- on the contrary, he's pointing to one of the core contradictions of the atheist worldview. He's reminding us that indeed, we do have this profound feeling (knowledge?) that the world is, and should be, fundamentally beautiful and just. If there's a God, this feeling makes sense. If there's no God, we still have this feeling. But why?

[Josh]

Originally posted 3/06:

As to Russell, I remember reading another atheist who did much the same thing...

Come to think of it, you've got a touch for the dramatic yourself, so maybe the moniker fits.

[hume]

Yeah, that 'touch for the dramatic' can be nothing more than browbeating one's opponents into submission ... it's a dangerous habit ...