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Post by Josh on Nov 4, 2009 20:42:16 GMT -8
The recent Christianity Today issue has some articles addressing concerns about how and why American-styled prosperity gospel* charismatics have made such big inroads in Africa and the dark side of the phenomena.
Indigenous African religions are already very oriented to the idea that ritual and "magical" actions can bring prosperity, wealth, health, or ward off negative spirits.
The brand of Christianity pushed by "health and wealth" Christians such as Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Paul and Jan Crouch (TBN), Joyce Meyer, Frederick Price, and Joel Osteen is attractive to those who are in poverty and suffering, but because it is only telling part of the gospel and over-inflating expectations for financial success while de-emphasizing the suffering required to follow Jesus, it leaves the poor and marginalized high and dry in Africa.
This really bothers me. I pray that God will strengthen the voice of African Christians who know that Christianity is not a religion of either prosperity or poverty, but of redemption, sacrifice, committment, and devotion to Jesus.
*The idea that as Christians we automatically deserve health, wealth, and prosperity depending on our amount of faith (and usually how much money we are willing to donate to whoever's peddling the half-truths)
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Post by Kirby on Nov 4, 2009 21:20:28 GMT -8
Sowing seeds on rocky ground?
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Post by Josh on Nov 4, 2009 22:06:22 GMT -8
It's more like they're sowing rocks on fertile ground, don't you think?
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Post by michelle on Nov 5, 2009 10:56:12 GMT -8
Well, Josh, you of course no how to get me right in the heart. I feel a long-winded, impassioned response coming on (surprise, surprise!).
I recently saw a story in this in the news somewhere (I can't remember where). The news story talked about how Pentecostal churches were growing quickly and creating a "revival" (I think in Ghana). People were flocking to these churches. I started out thinking 1) makes sense because Africans tend to be on the charismatic side, 2) that's cool that Christ is moving people there, and 3) I feel like there is "but" coming.
I didn't have to wait too long to find out the "but". About 45 seconds into the story I heard a guy say something to the affect that he joined the Pentecostal church because then he would become rich. OY! What is being told to people?? This is not the true Gospel. Are people misinterpreting what they are told? Are they being misled?
This led to a huge slew of questions that continue to be unanswered in my brain. I am looking forward to picking the brain of some Africans to learn the answers. How can I tell an someone who has little to no water and who gets to eat once every 2-3 days that Jesus will provide for their needs*? Really, because there are even people who DO believe in Jesus that go hungry and without water. And yes, I know that Jesus wasn't talking about actual water and food, but rather he was using a metaphor, but how could I possibly share that metaphor with them? What is the best way to present the gospel to people who suffer on a level that is more difficult than most of us could ever understand?
I think this problem is compounded by the fact that most Africans see Americans and they see wealth. They think, "there are people who don't have to suffer through their basic needs. I want that". It seems like their desires lie mostly in the desire to not be hungry, displaced and to be able to take care of their families. Money is so appealing to them because they just don't have it. It's like Americans are with material posessions. Man, we just don't have that new 42" LCD TV and we want it soooo badly. But in most ways their desires for money are to meet their basic needs first.
When people have 1, maybe 2 outfits, one pair of shoes (if they are lucky) and eat a cup of rice a day it can be such a tricky, sensitive thing to present the Gospel to them. How can we let them know about God's love for them, how can we help them to feel that love, and how can we not lead them to believe that the Gospel and their relationship with God will not lead them to thousands of dollars? All I know is that I can't wait to be there to find out what the dance is.
I was talking with a Malawian friend not too long ago about how I feel like God might be calling me to do a church plant in Uganda (or where God ends up sending me) and his response was, "Africa doesn't need more churches". He said that people give a bunch of their money to churches and are left with nothing. He said that pastors there are some of the more wealthy people because they get all of people's money. That crushed me. I know I will find out how true that is soon, but I tried to explain to him that my church wouldn't be that kind of church. My church would be focused on taking care of each member of the community. And that I want to be going deep with the people. Helping strengthen their relationship with God and helping that relationship go deep. He still responded "Africa doesn't need more churches". He thinks of church as a business. I guess that's the difference between him and I. I see church as a community. And as far as I'm concerned every country and every continent needs more communities founded in Christ and His love.
Ok, I'm done for now. Wow, you'd think I have a heart for Africa or something. ;D
*John 6:35 "He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."
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Post by Josh on Nov 5, 2009 11:12:56 GMT -8
The gospel has to have a component of making people's physical lives better for it to be worth it's salt. Without that, you're right, the "spiritual words" often fall on jaded ears.
The travesty is that for a lot of these big, popular churches in African urban areas that are heavily influenced by American prosperity preachers, their solution to improving people's physical well-being is simply magical:
-Send us more money and God will give you a "blessing".
-Do this ritual and you will have financial success.
Rather than simply helping teach their congregations how to steadily improve their financial and physical well-being with tried and true economic principles.
The article I read said that this movement has left the most impoverished Africans by the wayside.
But it also highlighted some charismatics churches who were doing things the right way, which was encouraging.
The cynicism toward some pastors in Africa must be huge. This article talks about one guy, self-proclaimed "Archbishop" Nicholas Duncan-Williams who simply flaunts his wealth. Sickening.
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Post by michelle on Nov 5, 2009 12:42:02 GMT -8
The travesty is that for a lot of these big, popular churches in African urban areas that are heavily influenced by American prosperity preachers, their solution to improving people's physical well-being is simply magical: -Send us more money and God will give you a "blessing". -Do this ritual and you will have financial success. This sounds so much like the medieval Catholic church when people literally had to pay for their sins to be atoned (according to priests anyway). Another sad thing that happens there is that those who have something tend to want to show everyone that they have a gold watch or new pair of A&F jeans. My friend from Malawi just went back to the Congo (where he was born) and he said that it has become a place of looks and showing off. Just like the rest of the world, I know that there are Christians who are doing right by God and are working to end the cycle of poverty. This is another thing I hope to do when I move there. I want to explore the options for helping people move out of that cycle. And I want that to include Christ. |
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Post by Margot on Nov 5, 2009 23:00:52 GMT -8
The gospel has to have a component of making people's physical lives better for it to be worth it's salt. Without that, you're right, the "spiritual words" often fall on jaded ears. I'm not sure what you mean here. The lives of the apostles weren't exactly an argument for making people's physical lives better. They ate what people gave them, slept where they were invited and spent a good deal of time being chased from place to place by unbelievers. I don't know how successful some of the fishermen once were, but scripture certainly leads us to believe Paul was doing a lot better in terms of social status and material goods before he started following the Lord. If anything, the NT promises us increased tribulation for following Christ. It seems to me the real issue is keeping the fire of the truth alive in our hearts even though our outward circumstances are not what we'd like them to be. I'm not talking about letting people starve to death, but I also don't think people should be led to believe there will be an improvement in their physical status when they accept the gift of salvation. Do you mean the love and care of the body that makes our lives richer? Or the fact that God is the ultimate real resource? I'd go for those.  |
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ben
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Posts: 115
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Post by ben on Nov 6, 2009 16:50:35 GMT -8
I'm with Margot on this one Josh.
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Post by Josh on Nov 7, 2009 10:33:36 GMT -8
Margot wrote:
OK. Lots of thoughts here. I hope I can get them all down coherently.
First off, there is a improvement in physical well-being thread in the apostle's message.
How about these interesting verses?
Mark 10:28-30 (New International Version)
28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.
and
Luke 18:28-30
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Or Jesus' own commission which we also enact:
Luke 4:17-19
17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Be back in a sec....
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Post by Josh on Nov 7, 2009 10:50:43 GMT -8
So, my point is that when we take the gospel to people we can't just preach to their souls, we must help their physical lives as well. Some more verses that show that we shouldn't separate out the spiritual component of the gospel from the physical component: Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.Luke 10:9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'James 1:27a Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress...1 John 3:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?Paul demonstrated this truth by raising money for the poor (1 Cor. 16). In other words, the "good news" is holistic good news- good news for every facet of humanity. Will there be suffering? Of course. That's what the "prosperity doctrine" folks don't account for. But their lies are all the more potent because there is some truth in them- namely that we are called to benefit the world physically as well as spiritually. It is Christians who have arguably improved the lives of more people on this planet than any other group- from the founding of the first hospitals to the abolition of slavery, etc.. This is part of bringing the gospel to a hurting world. Had Christians just sat back and remained content to preach the Gospel would be emptied of it's power. As to the particularly difficult road of physical suffering the disciples had to walk- well, I don't think that is necessarily God's ideal norm for most believers. Paul, called specifically to suffering (Acts 9:16) didn't seem to think so: 1 Timothy 2:1-4 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.Of course all believers will face adversity. But I don't think God wants all of us continually being stoned, shipwrecked, and beaten within in an inch of our lives I expect that we have much more agreement on this that at first glance. I'm glad you both emphasize the role of suffering in the life of the believer. That's definitely something the "health-wealth" "name it and claim it" folks are missing. I'm just trying to pull some pearls away from the swine. |
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ben
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Post by ben on Nov 7, 2009 15:36:49 GMT -8
As to the particularly difficult road of physical suffering the disciples had to walk- well, I don't think that is necessarily God's ideal norm for most believers.
I can understand that the gospel is more than just words and that we should do all we can to reach unbelievers by demonstrating good works but I am having some difficulty with the above statement.
I have been going through Steve's lectures on Church History and one of the true test for authentic faith was martyrdom. When Constantine legitimized Christianity, the church became paganized which is where I believe the church is today.
Now I can't truly say that I would be willing to get off my high horse and join my martyred heroes but I pray to God if it came to that, I would be counted worthy. I often think about that. Would I be willing to put my faith where my mouth is?
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Post by Margot on Nov 7, 2009 20:01:47 GMT -8
Josh: So I totally get/agree with the Isaiah quote and I also get/agree with the principle that as believers, God calls us to walk into a situation and help improve it in every way--spiritually, physically, emotionally etc. I'm not quite sure, though, what you are interpreting Mark 10:28-30 and Luke 18:28-30 to mean. Can you clarify a little bit?
Also, regarding Paul's comments:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
"Living peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness" in no way precludes living in poverty, sickness or danger. I think this quote emphasizes God's amazing ability to create this in our hearts no matter what the circumstances are. If anything, I think that when God is gracious enough to give us the ability to live this way, it gives Him even more leeway to put us in positions that are farther away from a "cushy American" Christianity.
I worry a lot about believers who don't take risks in their faith because they make the assumption "oh, that would make my family hungry or less stable and God couldn't possibly want me to do that!" How do we know how He chooses to achieve His purposes? I worry that we put our cultural grid on God and that sometimes leads us to make decisions for Him.
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Post by Josh on Nov 7, 2009 21:14:30 GMT -8
I'm not quite sure how to interpret them. They are baffling verses. How do you interpret them? At the very least Jesus seems to be saying that we will be blessed materially in this life in some way if we follow him.
I don't think it precludes poverty, sickness, or danger either. Even that crazy Mark 10 reference above is quick to point out that persecution with come along with material blessings. But I think the context in this passage is that it pleases God when a government doesn't persecute believers and that we should strive for that kind of situation (without of course compromising truth).
I hear you. American Christians need to take more risks for the Kingdom. However, as a counter-balance, there are verses like:
1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
In other words, it does honor God when you work hard to meet the physical needs of your family.
Of course, in our culture, there is a whole lot of confusion between needs and wants, right?
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Post by Josh on Nov 7, 2009 21:18:03 GMT -8
Earlier I wrote:
As to the particularly difficult road of physical suffering the disciples had to walk- well, I don't think that is necessarily God's ideal norm for most believers.
To which Ben replied:
The martyrs are worthy of the utmost respect, however Jesus himself said we should avoid martyrdom if we can in good conscience (Matt 10:23)
Be back in a bit...
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Post by Josh on Nov 7, 2009 22:18:15 GMT -8
God doesn't want most of us most of the time to be martyrs.
Yes, persecution sometimes brings out the best in the Church (though not always if you ask Vio about how Communism crushed Christianity in the Eastern Bloc). But good things come during times of freedom as well.
I don't think Constantine paganized the church. Many of the Christian emperors went out of their way to oppose paganism- even advocating persecution of pagans. Many good things happened as a result of the Empire becoming Christian. However, many Christians (notably those in authority) were unable to handle the power that came with Empire. Power corrupts, yes. But peace and security doesn't necessarily corrupt.
BTW, after the Christianization of Rome and the end of martyrdom as a noble undertaking, the new risk-taking sold-out Christians were the monks and hermits, who shunned materialism and helped the poor and needy. God brought a lot of good from those folks in the later years of the Roman empire.
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ben
Advanced Member
Posts: 115
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Post by ben on Nov 8, 2009 15:50:24 GMT -8
I'm not sure Matt 10:23 can be interpreted to mean that God wants believers to avoid martyrdom. There were times that he did protect His remnant like in AD 70 and there were times believers were brutalized for the faith. I kind of compare it to how Christians sometimes are healed and sometimes not.
I like Matt 16:24 "If anyone would come after me, he must take deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" Christ was the ultimate martyr. There were many that followed in the footsteps of the Apostles. Someone said that there are more people being persecuted and martyred for the faith today then ever. I don't know if this is true but I know that it's not true in America.
As far as Constantine is concerned, even after he became emperor, he allowed the old pagan institutions to remain as they were. He never abandoned sun worship. In AD 321, Constantine decreed that Sunday would be a day of rest- a legal holiday to honor the god Mithra. He restored Christian and pagan temples. Almost to his dying day, Constantine "still functioned as the high priest of paganism". Historians continue to debate whether Constantine was a genuine Christian.
By the way Josh watching Justus at church today was like watching a younger version of you. I still like the old version too. Get better soon.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Nov 8, 2009 17:31:39 GMT -8
God does not care whether you are rich or not. saying that i will take it a step further and say he doesnt care about whether you are healthy or not either- but let me clarify. i do not mean that God does not want you to take care of your self, but he is not dedicating energy to giving you money or health when he is working so hard (i speak metaphorically) on your spiritual health. (in other words BE healthy, but thats not what the gospel is about).
but i agree with you josh that it is appaling what those particular pentecostals are doing- i was raised pentecostal until i became MJ and then now i am more of a humanist than anything, but my point is that i have experienced this gospel and it doesnt work. but its ofty promises definitely attract people and you can never blame the gospel because if you dont get what you want--- well, you dont have enough faith.
it is degrading. i hope the africans get educated about the True Yeshua, whos love reaches out to them so much further than wealth and health and prosperity.
shalom
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