Faith, Prayer, and What We Get

[grokit]

I started a blog a couple of months ago discussing the Bible and hope everyone will take a look and please comment too. The first post discusses prayer which is why I'm posting this here. Thanks!

Faith, Prayer, and What We Get

I often hear people say that prayer works and then put some sort of qualifier on it. It usually goes something like: "You get what you ask for in prayer as long as it's part of God's plan," or "Just have faith that God will work it all out in his own way, but don't expect specific things."

I have never seen any of these qualifiers in the Bible. In fact every verse about prayer I remember reading makes it plain that you get exactly what you ask for if you have faith and/or belief. Here's the best example:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. - Mark 11:24 (NIV)
That seems pretty clear and strait-forward to me. The above verse doesn't even say anything about faith, or God, just that you have to believe that you have received. How about this one?

"... if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." - Matthew 17:20 (NIV)

Not only does this verse say you'll get what you ask for but "nothing will be impossible for you." That seems pretty unequivocal. And I'm pretty sure moving mountains around wouldn't be considered part of God's "plan" by most people. In fact they might just lock you up if you go around moving mountains. Over and over again the Bible says we can have or do anything we can conceive of, and yet the people who profess the strongest belief in the Bible don't believe. Here are several more Bible verses.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! - Matthew 7:7-11 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." - Matthew 8:13 (NIV)

Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you" - Matthew 9:29 (NIV)

He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. - Luke 17:6 (NIV)

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. - James 1:5 (NIV)

Now for some scriptures that might conflict with the above premise.

When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. - James 4:3

Many think of this as an argument against selfishness, but that's for another discussion. God has made it quite clear he wants us to prosper and find joy, even in this world. I think this is more likely about where that joy and prosperity comes from. The only real happiness comes from a relationship with God and if your looking for "pleasures" in what can be purchased with money you'll never really find what you're looking for. This doesn't mean we can't have anything we want and even enjoy the things of this world, the point is that if you're looking for fulfillment/happiness/purpose it only comes from one source. This world is like Jello; it tastes great, but you can't live on it. And as long as we pray for Jello we'll keep feeling like crap, and not getting what we really want.


The only reason we want anything is because we think it will make us happier. But when we realize that a connection/relationship with God will give us all the happiness we could ever want, the things of this world become trifles that God is happy to share with us.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. - 1 John 5:14 (NIV)

Hmmm... let's keep reading.

And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. - 1 John 5:15 (NIV)

Here again is the Bible saying that we can have whatever we ask, but this time, with the caveat that what we ask for must be according to God's will. Or does it? Is the Bible saying that what we ask for must be his will, or that we have to ask in the way we are told to?

The second verse (5:15) seems to indicate that the fist verse (5:14) was talking about asking in a way that God would listen and once he's listening he will then grant us any request. So we must ask according to his will, otherwise we won't be heard and our request will go unanswered. The Bible is full of instruction on how to pray and/or commune with God to get the message through; but, in my (trying to be humble) opinion, we still haven't found a restriction on what we can ask for and even more evidence that whatever it is we ask we will receive it. Maybe the next verse will help us figure out why where not always getting what we ask for.

For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil. - 1 Peter 3:10-12 (NIV)

Now many think this means that you must be some kind of perfect Christian and have all our "ducks in a row" with God before he will listen. Like having all sin confessed, devoting yourself to helping others, never having an argument, praying/studying for hours a day, never uttering an untruth, etc. If that were the case then 99.9% of the human race would be in a terrible pickle because almost no one's prayers would be answered.

I don't think these verses are trying to say that if someone does evil God will turn away from them forever unless they get things worked out, but he does turn away as the evil, or sin, is committed. We all do "evil" and we all do good, and God is listening when we are in alignment with him, or doing "good." The hint here on how to get God to listen is in the first couple of verses that tell us not to speak of (or think about) evil. How many of us discussed something that's been happening in the news lately today. We are to "seek peace" not keep up on the news if we want God to hear our prayers.

I don't consider this a complete discussion until others chime in, so please comment and let me know how you understand what the Bible says on this subject.

Original Source:
grokthebible.blogspot.com/

-Alex (the other one)

[sarah]

Will do!

[Josh]

I have some thoughts and hope to post them soon. Hmmm, maybe I'll post them in both places ;D

[Josh]

Ok, a couple thoughts/ questions.

Your basic premise is that it seems that in the Bible God unconditionally promises that we will receive what we ask for in prayer.

You hold that 1 John 5:14's reference to praying "according to God's will" is not intended to mean that the thing we ask for must be in line with His will, but rather that it's the asking itself that is in accordance with His will.

Is that a good summary?

Okay, so, first, why do you think that is what 1 John 5:14 means?

[Josh]

Secondly, if that is so, why do you think Jesus didn't get what he asked for?

Luke 22:42 (New International Version)

42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

[grokit]

That is a good summery. So here is the reason I think 1 John 5:14-15 means what I think it means.

1 John 5:14-15 (New International Version)
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

The final part of the first sentence, “he hears us,” indicates that the subject of the sentence is the “asking,” not what is being requested. Otherwise the sentence would end with “your request will be granted,” and the next verse would be unnecessary. Then, when the following verse talks about what is being prayed for and says "if he hears you," it is clearly referencing the previous verse. The verse also says, with emphasis, "whatever we ask."

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it will have to do for now.

I've forgotten the name of this argument from my Logic & Critical Thinking class 18 years ago; but if you have a single work, in this case the Bible, that states an argument several times clearly, and then there is a single ambiguous statement that may or may not support the other arguments you assume that the repeated clear argument is the meaning in the ambiguous portion. As you see in my blog there are many clear arguments for my premise.

To simplify what I'm saying. If an author of a paper says “yellow is the greatest color” four times and then says “blue and yellow are the greatest colors” once, you could take the last example as evidence that the author likes blue better than yellow because blue comes first. But because there are many other references to yellow being the greatest you have to assume that he means blue is the second greatest. The Bible has many clear statements in it about -any- request being answered (Mark 11:24, Mat 17:20, Mat 7:7-11, Luke 17:6, etc.).

Oh, and thanks for posting both places!

[Josh]

Thanks... I see your argument now in your original post.

I see your point about the logic of the preponderance of the various verses on the subject. However, I've always kind of viewed it in an opposite fashion, where the 1 John statement is a later clarification of what what had always been intended in the earlier passages (that we receive the what we pray for when we pray according to his will).

Jesus may have intended this because he himself taught us to pray that God's will be done in heaven and on earth.

What do you make of the garden of Gethsemene passage?



And, then, after I read your article I was left wondering what you make of all this, practically speaking. You seem to hint at a relationship between our own obedience to God and the efficacy of our prayers, which I agree with generally (as James says in James 5:16 or Peter in 1 Peter 3:12).

Still, what to do with those instances in which someone was presumably in right standing with God and did not receive what was asked for? (Jesus in the garden, Paul's thorn in the flesh, the healing of Timothy's stomach, and the lack of an immediate healing of Epaphroditus in Eph. 2:8-9,etc..)

[grokit]

The garden of Gethsemane passage will have to wait for a larger discussion. I have a lot to say on that and am planning on a blog about it in the future. Though, I will say this, that Jesus asked for the cup to be taken, yes, but then also asked that God's will be done, so he still received what he said was important in his prayer.

You make a good point about Jesus, and others, telling us to pray for God's will, but I don't think that negates my premise. The prodigal son would have been better off if he had done his father's (God's) will, certainly, and is probably what he should have done. But the father (God) still granted his request even though it went against his will for his son.

So, yes praying for God's will to be done is the best kind of prayer, but it doesn't mean God doesn't grant the prayers that don't please him.

As far as Paul, Timothy and Epaphroditus are concerned; I assume that their faith, like the rest of us, was imperfect.

[Josh]

but it doesn't mean God doesn't grant the prayers that don't please him.

If a prayer doesn't please God, then how can it be a prayer in faith? In other words, if you're saying that some prayers don't get answered because of our imperfect faith, then how could a request that doesn't please God get answered?

I'm not sure that there is a direct correspondance between the prodigal son's request and prayers in general. Can you think of any other instances in Scripture where God granted someone's prayer request even though it displeased Him?

Another question: so, are you saying that, for instance, all it would take for a cancer patient to be healed would be enough faith?

[christopher]

This is definitely a tricky topic.

There are scriptural instances that seem to suggest that all requests asked in faith will be granted (such as were listed in the blog).

There are also instances where even demons get what they request.

Mark 5:12-13
12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them." 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission.
NKJV

But there are also instances that what was requested, even by men of great faith, was not granted (like the ones Josh listed). In the same story I listed above where Jesus granted the demons' request, we see Him denying the request of the man he healed.

Mark 5:18-20
18 And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. 19 However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, "Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you." 20 And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.
NKJV

I would have to guess that at that moment, there was nobody with greater faith than the man who had been delivered from demon-possession. What was the difference? The demons asked for something in accordance with God's will and the man was healed did not. It's not that the demons pleased God, only that they unknowingly requested what Jesus was already going to do for them. Likewise, it served God's purposes more for the man to go tell everyone he knew what had been done to him.


In the 1 John 5 passage, my personal opinion is that the surrounding context is that of praying for the unsaved, not a general statement about receiving whatever we ask for.

In his epistle, James suggests that asking in faith is a prerequisite to receiving:

James 4:2-3
Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

But he also says:

James 4:3
You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
NKJV

..so it would seem that there is some amount of discernment that God uses in granting requests.

When Jesus spoke of moving mountains with prayer, I believe he was using hyperbole to say that God can and will do miraculous things through their ministry, things that seem impossible. It's about serving God in faith knowing that He will remove great obstacles IMO. I think Jesus was using the cursing of the fig tree in this passage as a demonstration of that, kind of an object lesson (albeit a very symbolic one).

I would agree that God enjoys giving good gifts to his children:

James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights,
NKJV

...and that would of course include certain material and physical blessings. But I also think that as a the perfect Father, His gifts are that which promote our spiritual health and any request we make that is contrary to that will probably be denied. Just as a good parent would not grant his/her child ice cream for every meal, so God denies the requests that would spoil us and be unhealthy for us.

I think Jesus' key words in the Mark 11 example are "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). That is to say, a request made in faith is not necessarily faith that you will get what you ask, but that God will respond in the best conceivable way based on His infinite wisdom and power. To me, faith is simply synonymous with trust.

If God indeed gives us whatever we ask (even if it displeases Him) it seems that He is subject to our will rather than the other way around. That doesn't quite jibe with the character of God revealed in scripture IMO.

Anyway, that's one of my two cents on the matter.

[Josh]

When Jesus spoke of moving mountains with prayer, I believe he was using hyperbole to say that God can and will do miraculous things through their ministry, things that seem impossible. It's about serving God in faith knowing that He will remove great obstacles IMO. I think Jesus was using the cursing of the fig tree in this passage as a demonstration of that, kind of an object lesson (albeit a very symbolic one).

But I also think that as a the perfect Father, His gifts are that which promote our spiritual health and any request we make that is contrary to that will probably be denied. Just as a good parent would not grant his/her child ice cream for every meal, so God denies the requests that would spoil us and be unhealthy for us.

I think Jesus' key words in the Mark 11 example are "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). That is to say, a request made in faith is not necessarily faith that you will get what you ask, but that God will respond in the best conceivable way based on His infinite wisdom and power. To me, faith is simply synonymous with trust.

Agreed.

But Alex mentioned the prodigal son story and how the Father seems to grant the child his request even though it is not the healthy one.

I guess my reconciliation of this would be to say that the story of the prodigal son isn't teaching us about specifically about prayer, it's teaching us about God's attitude toward us as a parent.

And I think the inheritence in the story represents our free will, and that is something that God grants in some measure to every human being. In other words, I don't think God gives us whatever we ask for (for the reasons cited above), but He does give us all free will (symbolized in the story by the inheritance)

What do you think Alex?

[Josh]

chris wrote:

In the 1 John 5 passage, my personal opinion is that the surrounding context is that of praying for the unsaved, not a general statement about receiving whatever we ask for.

Why do you think this? Just because the following passage covers that subject? And if it is about that, then it seems you'd have a new dilemma in arguing that we always get what we ask for in regard to praying for the unsaved.

[christopher]

Josh, you need to fix the quotes, it looks like your commenting on two of my quotes when in reality those are my comments.

[christopher]

But Alex mentioned the prodigal son story and how the Father seems to grant the child his request even though it is not the healthy one.

Wasn't it? Wasn't the prodigal son more humble and spiritually healthy when he returned? Sometimes the best thing for a parent to do is let go and let the child fall on their face. I've had to learn this as a Father, that no matter how much you tell your child what is best for them, sometimes they have to experience failure themselves and learn from it. They are the better for it.

[christopher]

Why do you think this? Just because the following passage covers that subject?

Oh, you know...it's that pesky continuity thing I always get hung up on. The immediate context on both sides of the statement almost demand that conclusion in my mind. Otherwise, John sounds a bit scatter brained.

And if it is about that, then it seems you'd have a new dilemma in arguing that we always get what we ask for in regard to praying for the unsaved.

Have you ever read George Muellers' story about this? He had a list of unsaved people he prayed for everyday. By the end of his life all but two of them became Christians, and those two were converted after his death.

"with God, all things are possible"

[Josh]

But the context isn't unsaved people getting saved, but praying for "brothers" to recover from sins that "don't lead to death". And, I suppose, such prayers would by defintion have to be answered affirmatively.

[christopher]

Well, that is one opinion. Not the one I hold however. We shouldn't assume that "brother" in the bible always means a fellow Christian. It's often used as a fellow countryman or neighbor as well.

I think the better interpretation is the one John has already used in this book:

1 John 3:66 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.NKJV

I believe this to say that he "practices" or "lives in" sin does not know him. Likewise, a "sin unto death" in chapter 5 is just that, he who dies in his sin (I think we may have discussed this verse before). I believe John is saying don't pray for them, but for those who have not yet died in their sin, that they may be saved.

Therefore, my opinion is that John is encouraging his readers to pray for the salvation of their neighbors.