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Post by michelle on Mar 19, 2007 21:07:35 GMT -8
I just read a great analogy that shed some light on the question of whether the characteristics of God in the OT and NT are contradictory.
"...the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you’re a child, you need directions and some strict rules." It makes total sense when I think about God the father in the role of a parent. When we are kids our parents are there to put structure and discipline in our lives, even if it means we have to do things that we don't want to (like cleaning our rooms) or doing things that are difficult. But as we grow up and mature, those relationships tend to morph into less of a parent/child relationship (ideally) and into more of a friend/friend relationship (hopefully). And while our parents' characteristics don't change, the ones they reveal to us do change because we change.
Here's the end of that quote, which I just LOVE:
"But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross." Spooky in the coolest way!
*Quotes are by Bono and are found in Bono in conversation with Michka Assayas.
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Post by Josh on Apr 21, 2007 21:02:53 GMT -8
The quote from Bono has me thinking of more points along these lines:
First off, not only might we see more of God's sternness in the OT, we do also see His tenderness often. Just as a child needs a firm parent at times, he or she also needs indulgent affection at times as well (think about when a child scrapes his knee, for instance). And we do see some very tender images in the OT (I'm thinking of the tender themes found in Isaiah, and even in the early stories of Abraham and the other Patriarchs).
This just goes to affirm the fact that our Father is unchanging, but knows how to respond to us just as we need it.
Also, just as there are some meta-shifts from OT to NT, I think God in our own lives takes us through the lessons of the OT (the importance of the law, the power and sovreignty of God, etc.) through to the lessons of the NT (living out the 'sermon on the mount', understanding the role of the Holy Spirit, understanding righteousness, etc..). That's why the OT will never be passe, because we all walk through the valley in our own lives.
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Post by Douglas on Apr 22, 2007 19:14:15 GMT -8
One of the main difference that i have seen between old and new testaments is not so much the content as the mode of communication. It is much easier to read and understand Paul in many regards because of his logical systematic approach to God, theology and the church. It is another thing altogether to wrestle with the theology of Moses and the Prophets. i think our western minds have a really hard time comprehending stories. They take to long and are often vague and ambiguous. Yet if we do not understand the OT stories how will we really understand the NT which is built on them?
Douglas
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Post by Josh on Apr 22, 2007 19:23:43 GMT -8
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Post by Midnight Romance on Jun 5, 2009 16:37:19 GMT -8
I'm going to admit, I disagree with you guys. Sort of.
God obviously didn't change between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He was trying to make statements in both.
As Christians, we are so focused all the time on the fact that "God forgave us" that we miss the entire other half of the gospel message. That is . . . .
"We are sinners and God punishing us all the time would never cure us of that."
My fiance is a Christian and He really NEEDS the Old Testament. Why? Because He can never understand that first statement and neither can a lot of Christians.
The Old Testament is full of law and God punishing people for misbehaving and breaking His laws. Did they ever change when He punished them? No, they did it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for thousands of years. Even when He killed all of them and let them be raped and took all their stuff and let them starve. It didn't matter what He did human nature never changes.
My fiance is very misguided and under the belief that all God has to do is zap everyone every time they are bad and they will all change and behave all the time. The Old Testament is evidence for the fact that that will NEVER work.
Only forgiveness will work.
Until you understand that we are all sinners and that God punishing us to make us behave will do nothing, you will never accept the forgiveness part.
Muslims for instance, would probably say that God punishing people would make humanity better. They do not understand that and therefore they do not have the forgiveness in their religion.
I've talked to a lot of atheists as well, who say they are good people. They wouldn't want forgiveness because they don't understand they are sinners.
God was grinding into our heads that first point because until you get it, you are never going to get the second point.
But you guys are right. There is laws in the New Testament and rituals that represent sacrifices given for reconciliation with God and prophecies of what is going to happen in the Old Testament. They are not direct opposites, but they are both trying to make different points.
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Post by codybateman on Jun 15, 2009 20:42:23 GMT -8
I have never seen the word of God divided between "old" and "new" but rather, a continuous proclamation of His plans for those of us He has showered grace and mercy and love on.
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Post by Josh on Jun 15, 2009 22:53:02 GMT -8
Agreed. The terms are mere conventions.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Jun 16, 2009 1:30:12 GMT -8
actuaally Paul was very jewish in the way that he communicatd the gospel. he was a pharisee for Gods sake! literally. lso Paul communicated the OT the way that jewish theologians did now and at the time of his life, but with messianic teachings.
but, Yeshua is the same Yesterday Today and Forever, and since yeshua is the manifestation of Yahs attributes, the tangible matter of his sh'kinah, than yah himself never changes either.
what does change however, is the lense through which WE see God. it is our change that Gives Yah his diversity.
the OT and NT are just alike actually. you think that the old testament has death penalty and judgement heh? well, what about annanias and sephira? they died because they lied to the spirit of Yeshua, the Ruach Ha Kodesh.
i think that analogy has some truth to it michelle. but to answer the title of the thread, No god does not change at all. He is the Eyn Sof (unlimitless, infinity).
shalom- john
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Post by Josh on Jul 24, 2009 8:50:14 GMT -8
yeshuafreak wrote:
As I said above, God is the same God in both the OT and NT, and demonstrates all of His attributes in both. But I wouldn't go so far as to say both testaments are "just alike", unless you qualify in what sense.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Jul 24, 2009 9:09:04 GMT -8
i dont mean "just alike" the way ou are taking it; i was esssentially trying to show that God forever shows his mercy. many people see the God of the OT as one who is fierce and angry, but this is not so. God continually shows his grace and mercy in the OT:
he provides animal sacrifices for a way out of death, did he not? he also saved Yisrael even though he was going to destroy them for their idolotrous sin of the Golden calf.
also, the Lord does not change, so he could not have changed btwn the testements: mal 3:6 says For I am the LORD, I change not.
james 1:17 say Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
lastly, God also shows his judgement in the NT- look at annanieas and saphira who died for lying to the Ruach HaKodesh, and look at revelation where blood is said to raise up to the horses bridle. whether you think it is past or present, thatwas still Gods wrath.
shalom- john
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Post by Josh on Jul 25, 2009 9:26:55 GMT -8
Agreed.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Jul 27, 2009 15:45:24 GMT -8
to me?
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Post by Josh on Jul 27, 2009 20:34:48 GMT -8
Yep. I agree with your thoughts on that last post.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Jul 30, 2009 10:42:36 GMT -8
oh okay. thank you. shalom- john
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Post by Josh on Sept 2, 2009 6:58:07 GMT -8
So, kevin, on several different threads we've been discussing divergent views on the Old Testament. I have a question for you, since you value Jesus' own words.
What do you make of this statement Jesus makes about the "Old Testament"?
Matt.5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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Post by krhagan19 on Sept 2, 2009 10:53:43 GMT -8
Kevin: Lord I am calling child protective services on you.
Lord: Why, I am a tender and just father/
Kevin: You let your pissant neighbor torture your child Job NEARLY to death and did not intervene when Job had done nothing against you.
Lord: But I am God I can do what I want.
Kevin: We have laws on this planet, furthermore Lord, testing your childs faith by forcing it to come within seconds of kill its own child. . . NOT COOL LORD.
Lord: Oh, I see
Ok, maybe that is not a good anology, how many small children have children of their own, not many, yet, what might we think of a father who has his son, or daughter for that matter hold a knife to the throat of a kitten or a puppy and we tell them to prove that they love their parents, they must sacifice their puppy to us??? Then we take it back, it was just a test of faith. That parent would be sitting in Multnomah County Justice Center today and his children would be in protective custody.
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Post by Josh on Sept 2, 2009 11:50:23 GMT -8
Hmmm, you didn't really answer my question.
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