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Post by Josh on Feb 3, 2008 15:21:57 GMT -8
Anyone know anything about the U2 3D IMAX movie? "Schlaef" just told me about it and said it was awesome. It's showing at Bridgeport. Anyone interested in seeing it? Here's the link for more info: www.u23dmovie.com
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Post by michelle on Feb 3, 2008 18:42:28 GMT -8
I heard about it on the radio. I think it would be cool to see. You can count me in if you are trying to get a group together to go see it.
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Post by christopher on Feb 4, 2008 11:22:39 GMT -8
Wow, that looks incredible.
We'd love to go to it, but we're not sure we could find a sitter that would be able to handle all 3 of our boys, especially with Zach being so young.
It looks like there's only 1 date from what I can tell. I'd be surprised that it's not already sold out.
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Post by michelle on Feb 4, 2008 14:24:54 GMT -8
I think it's playing everyday at Bridgeport...Fandango shows showtimes for today. I think it might be just one date at the other theaters.
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Post by Josh on Feb 4, 2008 15:41:52 GMT -8
Yep... it shows several times each day at Bridgeport. We're trying to find a time that works.
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2008 17:07:47 GMT -8
Super last minute, but if anyone wants to meet us tonight at Bridgeport for the show, it starts at 7:40. I think it's $13.
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2008 22:12:59 GMT -8
Wow... we were blown away. Very cool experience.
One observation I came away with:
"Coexist" (you know, with the Muslim half-moon, Jewish star, and Cross) was a prominent feature in the concert. Whenever I've seen that bumper sticker on cars I've had mixed feelings about it-- I guess mainly because I saw it as possibly a push to blur all the distinctions between religious and/or water them all down.
But the context of the message in U23D was the meaninglessness of violence between religions- especially between the "children of Abraham" who claim so much of the same heritage.
Knowing U2's perspective pretty well I didn't see it as a statemate that differences in religion don't matter but as a statement that hatred and violence between religions gets us nowhere.
I was thinking about how so many Christians are reluctant to go down that round out of fear that we might lose our commitment to truth. But the reality is that we should be leading the way toward peace and respectful dialogue and even cooperation between religions. None of those things means we need to compromise the truth or denegrate the role of Jesus as God's unique self-expression. The truth is that Jesus, as God's son, taught us by example to lead the way toward peace and love.
Though all religions can claim that "loving your neighbor" is in some sense native to their beliefs, it's even more so in Christianity. While the Jewish Scriptures and the Koran teach (for the most part) fair-mindedness toward others, Christ went even beyond that, encouraging us to love, pray for, and forgive our enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, see those who are not against us as for us in some way, and preach the truth without compelling anyone by any means except love.
Why aren't we leading the way to peaceful interactions between religions in the world?
Well, maybe some of us are.... I'd highly recommend checking out U23D while it's still in theaters.
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Post by rose on Feb 13, 2008 20:51:10 GMT -8
...and The Edge ROCKS!!! Wow, what an amazing guitar player. Michelle, I think he's just bypassed Bono in my book!
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Post by robin on Feb 14, 2008 10:05:27 GMT -8
This is an interesting subject (that of a peaceful utopia between different religions). Of course Jesus did teach that we should love our enemies, forgive our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us. But are we to expect that this action will be rewarded with a peaceful relationship with other religious groups? I would say no. Jesus taught that we should expect to be hated and persecuted for his sake.
Matthew 5:10-12 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
I think this co-existing in a loving manner is nice to think about, but I don't believe that it is a reality that we can expect to achieve. At least not until Christ returns. Everywhere that Christianity springs up, it is met with violence, and it alway has been. Persecution against the saints has been a defining factor from the beginning. It was Tertullian who said that "the blood of the myrters ls the seed of the saints". Now please don't get me wrong. I don't think that as Christians we should be the perpetrators of violence, but we should certainly expect voilence in return as a result of being Christians and spreading the gospel.
I would like to say more but I have to run.
Robin
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Post by b on Feb 14, 2008 14:05:29 GMT -8
That is an excellent point, and one that can easily get overlooked.
The idea that we are called to love and forgive our enemies, and even those who persecute us is central to our faith.
But what response should we expect from them to our forgiveness and love?
I think that at times, showing love to someone who opposes you can work to "win them over" by showing them your faith acted out. They may be surprised, curious, or intrigued by your forgiveness and it can change the interaction between you.
In other situations, forgiving and loving may be more for the sake of Christ, and ultimately for our own good than for creating peace in the moment. We can not control how others will respond to our actions.
I am thinking of situations like that of "the end of the spear", where the five missionaries in Ecuador were being attacked by the Wadoni warriors. Even as they watched their friends being stabbed and murdered, they did not fight back ( even though 2 of them had guns ). They had decided ahead of time not to use violence against the tribes, even to save their own lives, because "they are not ready for heaven yet, and we are".
All of the missionaries were killed, but the evidence shows that they arrived showing love and friendship and were forgiving their attackers even at the moment of their deaths.
In that situation, God later used that encounter and the couragesous widows of the missionaries to spread the gospel to that tribe. If you have not read the book or seen the film, I would recommend it. A very powerful story.
I don't know what this has to do with U2, but I just had to speak up.
PS Next time anyone goes to Bridgeport Village, call us. We are like 3 minutes away!
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Post by robin on Feb 14, 2008 15:52:58 GMT -8
Hi Brian, I thought about starting this under another thread, so I apologize for taking this off subject.
I think your analogy the End of the Spear movie is perfect. However, the missionaries did not attempt to co-exist with another religious group, but rather they intended to introduce Christianity to them and lost their lives in the process. Their example is certaily one to follow.
Now I'm not so sure that it is right to ask the question "what should we expect?". I think we are better off asking "am I being obedient to Christ" (loving my enemy, praying for those who persecute me, forgiving those who sin against me, etc.). And whatever comes of it, good or evil, so be it.
But on this much I'm sure we can agree. One day the kingdom of heaven will fill the entire earth, and then we will have peace when Christ returns.
Matthew 13:33 " 33 "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
Praise God!
Robin
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Post by Josh on Feb 14, 2008 19:45:02 GMT -8
Hey guys,
Great points and counterpoints. A couple notes of clarification of my perspective:
I'm not envisoning a "peaceful utopia between different religions". I'm just saying that Christians need to be leaders in peacemaking and examples in respectful, truthful communication among all peoples.
I agree that the "results" of our peacemaking may be unpredictable. We can, of course, expect extreme persecution in the cause of truth and justice and mercy. But I think we need to be careful with thinking that efforts at peacemaking are futile until Christ returns. (I don't think that's what you're saying at all, Robin, btw. It's just a sense I have of the reason for many Christian's complacency about the state of the world)
There are many examples in history where Christians were able to obtain lasting peace through their leadership, sacrifice, and love.
One problem I see U2 addressing is the tendency of religious people to turn a blind eye to the suffering of people who don't share their beliefs- sort of a, well, if they don't accept our beliefs, then why should we help them or intercede on their behalf? Or even the idea that we'll help them as long as it gives us a chance to proselytize them.
For example: if by appealing to Muslim's better nature and/or working together with Muslims who want peace, we could save the lives of even some children around the world, then wouldn't that be worth the effort? We don't have to compromise our beliefs or sweep our differences under the rug to do that. But, unfortunately, instead we see Christians who refuse to even associate with people of other faiths, only increasing the distrust and animosity between groups.
Though as Christians we would like to see everyone turn to Christ, the only Savior, we are also called to see Christ in others (Muslim, Hindu, etc..) and love them without strings attached. It is, I believe, in the very act of loving them without ulterior motives (though I don't think it's wrong to be upfront about one motive we have, which is to see people saved) that our faith is most attractive.
A couple other things:
I really liked this paragraph, Brian. Good thoughts there.
Robin, this made me think of William Wilberforce. How do you think this would or wouldn't apply in a situation like his. What I mean is, yes, standing up for the rights of slaves came out of his obedience to Christ, but would he have kept his endurance up over so many years without some expectation (realistic plan?) of what could be acheived?
Still, I think you make an important point about how obedience does trump results. Obedience is not predicated on a successful outcome, but rooted in allegiance to Christ, embracing the uncertainties of the future because we know whatever happens, He is with us.
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Post by christopher on Feb 14, 2008 21:48:06 GMT -8
I haven't read any points here on either side that I really disagree with. So I'm not sure this qualifies as a debate. ;D
I just wanted to add a few of my thoughts if I may.
It seems to me that Jesus, the disciples, and the martyrs of old were mainly persecuted by those who saw them as a threat or obstinate. They were (and still are) religious types with personal agendas and governments that found Christians either convenient to blame for something (like Nero's fire), or disrespectful to the current king by claiming (and convincing others) that Jesus was the true King (Acts 17:7). It's the holding fast to the faith of Jesus as Lord (and His radical counter-cultural ways) that poses a threat to the powers that be.
Religiously speaking, all sides see themselves as being God's faithful defenders. For Jews, Christianity is the "blasphemy" of claiming that God Himself came in the flesh (a repulsive thought to the Jewish paradigm). For the Muslims, it's the stubborn refusal to embrace the "new improved revelation" of God through Muhammed which makes Christians apostate infidels worthy of death.
For some reason, and completely without biblical warrant, many Christians have historically taken the bait and engaged with these groups on this level. It's unfortunate.
Paul said:
Rom 12:17-21 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. NKJV Like Josh said, "Co-existing" doesn't have to be an embrace of the validity of erroneous beliefs, only the attitude of Christ to love others regardless.
I think U2 may have been making that gesture to try to take some of the wind out of the well-earned reputation Christians have of being arrogant and hypocritical regarding their faith.
We don't need to go out of our way to be obnoxious to the world. Jesus will do that just by being the "Humble King" and interrupting the plans of the ambitious.
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Post by robin on Feb 15, 2008 8:36:11 GMT -8
It's impossible for me to say whether Wilberforce would have had the endurance to continue without success. If he not had seen some success in his life time, he could take comfort in the fact the he served his Lord, and that is all we can strive for in my opinion. If I remember correctly, one of Wilberforce's co-conspirators died before the emancipation. I'm sure there were many who fought for emancipation before Wilberforce, but he gets much of the credit. Regardless thought, they will all rejoice together.
John 4:35-38 35 Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this the saying is true: 'One sows and another reaps.' 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors."
I realize that these verse's are taken out of context, but I still think it makes the point.
Robin
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Post by Josh on Feb 15, 2008 10:00:58 GMT -8
I think those verses are very apropos.
It's not that I'm wondering whether Wilbeforce (or others) needed to see success, though. It's the whether they "needed" to know that success was realistically possible or not that I'm most interested in.
I think that we can realistically expect that our efforts toward peacemaking in the world (between different groups or nations or religions) can work, though not always (or even usually?) I think too many Christians think it's not worth seriosuly trying to be a peacemaker (except just in words) because it is hard.
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Post by b on Feb 15, 2008 11:48:13 GMT -8
I heartily agree that there is no debate on this thread, just voices sharing perspectives on the same truths.
And when I said that I was off the topic of U2, I was referring only to my own rambling on about missionaries, not at all the previous posts
And I also heartily agree, as Robin said, that the question is "Am I being obedient to Christ" and the prayer is "his will be done"
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Post by Josh on Feb 22, 2008 17:41:14 GMT -8
Rose and I are going to see U23D again on Monday night at Bridgeport at 7:25 PM. The cost is $13.00.
Let us know if you want to go!
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