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Post by Josh on Jul 21, 2009 18:49:05 GMT -8
Agree or disagree?
"The more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs"
Bertrand Russell, op. cit. , pp. 20-21
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Post by deusexmachina on May 8, 2010 14:38:36 GMT -8
Heartily agree. Dogma (and the religious power trippers who create it) is responsible for the bastardization of Christianity into this giant mess of will's and wont's and do's and don'ts and holier-than-thou nonsense that tends to get people tortured and killed. Jesus said love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself-this sums up the law and the prophets. That's it. That is the entire point of the Old Testament (the Torah and the Nevi'im, colloquially called the Law and the Prophets during Jesus' time). What's your job as a Christian? Love God, love your neighbor, and be as Christ-like as possible. (That is, after all what Christian means.) Crusades not required.
I have a strong faith, a desire to follow Christ, a love for my God and my fellow man, but I am not religious-that is dangerous stuff.
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Post by Josh on May 9, 2010 20:32:26 GMT -8
Then why bother with the whole Bible? Why didn't he just sent someone to say just that and leave out the rest? The answer is that we need the details to understand how to love God and others fully. DEM, how do you definte dogma? Dictionary.com list the following definitions: 1.a system of principles or tenets, as of a church. 2.a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption. 3.prescribed doctrine: political dogma. 4.a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. I think a lot of people use the word to mean defintion #1. I tend to define dogma as doctrine. And here's the thing: a lot of people disagree on certain doctrines. If there is good reason to be uncertain about a doctrine in Scripture, then there is good reason not to be "dogmatic" about it. There are many doctrines in Scripture, however, which I don't believe there's any good reason to disagree about as a Christian (for instance, that Jesus' death somehow brought us reconciliation with God). The bible itself even gets very dogmatic about certain beliefs. For instance (a couple of examples): 1 John 4:1-3a Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.What do you think? As to Russell's quote: I'm of the opinion that dogmatic belief is only a problem is so far as it's placed in things which shouldn't be held dogmatically in the first place. I believe, dogmatically, as you mentioned elsewhere, that the Law and the Prophets are summed up in loving God and loving others. Is that going to lead to cruelty? There have been times in history in which dogmatic beliefs have saved civilizations or whole people groups! I can just see Russell critiquing William Wilberforce for being too dogmatic in his belief that in light of Scripture we should ban the slave trade
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Post by deusexmachina on May 9, 2010 22:55:03 GMT -8
Then why bother with the whole Bible? Why didn't he just sent someone to say just that and leave out the rest? The answer is that we need the details to understand how to love God and others fully. Personally, I believe that the Bible has several purposes. The Old Testament shows us what it was like when we had to bear the consequences of our own sins (before the sacrifice of Jesus), and the New Testament is to show us the life of Christ (for us to emulate, in the gospels) and the effect of Christ (the "after" if you will, in the following books). That's just my opinion of course, but after much prayer it is the way that I understand the Bible. I consider dogma to be actions or beliefs that were not told to us by Jesus Himself. For example-my mother in law believes that there were human-angel hybrids that caused God to flood the world. She bases this on a part of the Bible, relying on her own interpretation. Which is fine, of course, I have all sorts of theories about other parts of the Bible. But when those theories become beliefs (a part of our practicing faith) I feel that they can turn too easily into power plays. Should you or should you not pray to Mary? Have priests? People have died for these issues, and I think that is terrible-still it's not the fault of faith (Christianity in general), but dogma. I also think that being dogmatic (even about things which actually were spoken by/told to us by Jesus) is wrong. In my opinion, Jesus was not dogmatic-firm in His faith certainly, but He was humble not arrogant in his belief and I think we should all strive to be firm but humble-I just don't see that happening while being dogmatic. Yet there were others who believed, in light of scripture, that slaves should serve their 'owners' without complaint. That's the problem with dogma-too easily bent to people's will. Sure it can do good things, but it can do so much more harm than good. In my opinion it is better to love the Lord, love our neighbors, live a life of humble service like Christ, and chalk up the rest to 'my THEORY is ____'.
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Post by moritz on May 10, 2010 0:32:35 GMT -8
Heartily agree. Dogma (and the religious power trippers who create it) is responsible for the bastardization of Christianity into this giant mess of will's and wont's and do's and don'ts and holier-than-thou nonsense that tends to get people tortured and killed. Jesus said love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself-this sums up the law and the prophets. That's it. That is the entire point of the Old Testament (the Torah and the Nevi'im, colloquially called the Law and the Prophets during Jesus' time). What's your job as a Christian? Love God, love your neighbor, and be as Christ-like as possible. (That is, after all what Christian means.) Crusades not required. I have a strong faith, a desire to follow Christ, a love for my God and my fellow man, but I am not religious-that is dangerous stuff. I like you. What's your story?
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Post by Josh on May 19, 2010 19:27:49 GMT -8
Wow. I can't believe I'm just seeing this now. Thanks for the response.
So this is your own definition, then? Good to know. I have a lot of agreement with you here as far as separating the "main and plain things" of Scripture from the things that are far more debatable or less important.
Still, are you saying that the things written, for instance, in the epistles in the New Testament aren't as important as statements ascribed to Jesus in the Gospels?
If I understand you correctly, I also believe that dogmatism, as a personality trait, is counter-productive to the gospel.
What about believing in Jesus' atoning sacrifice? Is that important?
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Post by Josh on May 22, 2010 13:53:09 GMT -8
A related quote from Timothy Keller's book The Reason for God:
"It is common to say that "fundamentalism" leads to violence, yet as we have seen, all of us have fundamental, unprovalbe faith-commitments that we think are superior to those of others. The real question, then, is which fundamentals will lead their believers to be the most loving and receptive to those with whom they differ? Which set of unavoidably exclusive beliefs will lead us to humble, peace-loving behavior?"
Again, it's not dogma itself that's the problem. It's particular dogma that is the problem.
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