|
|
Post by Josh on May 12, 2009 12:09:46 GMT -8
Perhaps there's a difference between these two propositions:
a) If I was transported back in time, would I choose differently?
and
b) If I had the choice to go back in time, would I?
I would definitely answer yes to a, but it's b that I'm not so sure about.
God Himself doesn't choose B, right?
And, btw, I must revise my position a bit and say, in the case of Adam and Eve, that it would have been the better choice not to have disobeyed God. God, in fact, may have allowed them to eat of that tree when they were ready for it, who knows?
But, I don't think we can say that the end result would have been better than the end result of what did happen.
Does that make sense?
|
|
|
|
Post by robin on May 13, 2009 7:05:58 GMT -8
Perhaps its not that God chooses not to go back in time, but maybe he can't. Oh no what type of heresy is this?  ;D You may very well be correct, but I would lean the other direction. However, this is not the question that Michelle posed. Michelle asked a hypothetical question, and that is how I attempted to answer it. I know that I can't go back in time, therefore I learn to live with the choices I made, attempting to make restitution for my mistakes. Robin |
|
|
|
Post by Alex on May 13, 2009 12:32:29 GMT -8
Perhaps its not that God chooses not to go back in time, but maybe he can't. Oh no what type of heresy is this? ;D I'm not of the opinion that God is bounded in time, any more than the other directions of space. From that line choosing to go forward or back is not a relevant perspective, any more than if God can act in two places at once. |
|
|
|
Post by Josh on May 18, 2009 13:50:39 GMT -8
Alex, I agree with your perspective on this. For a debate on the subject (that's open for continuation), see this thread that Robin started: God, Time, and Open Theism |
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 19, 2009 22:32:04 GMT -8
Don't you think it is possible or even likely that we would be better than we are today, had we not made regrettable decisions in the past? Well, I can't speak for others, but I honestly don't feel I would be a better person today if I had not made some of the bad decisions I've made in the past. Some of my choices have led me to times of despair and those are the times that I found myself clinging to Jesus. To me those moments are invaluable and have helped me to establish an intimate relationship with him. Michelle, I definitely agree with you. I am not proud of the mistakes I've made, but going back and "erasing" them would not be the answer for me. Can I really presume that their lives would be better if I had not hurt them? Aren't these the things that changed and shaped them? All I'll say is that I have learned a lot through the pain some people have brought me. |
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 19, 2009 22:38:43 GMT -8
I'm not of the opinion that God is bounded in time, any more than the other directions of space. Agreed. |
|
|
|
Post by robin on May 20, 2009 8:50:28 GMT -8
Hi Margo, you wrote: Specifically you asked "Can I really presume that their lives would be better if I had not hurt them?". I am completely baffled by this statement. Of course people would be better off if we did not hurt them. If you are correct why should we ever ask for forgiveness? By hurting them you helped them right? By your logic they are better off because you hurt them. Thats probably why people who have been been abused, raped, cheated, and lied to are better off then those who have not.  Perhaps we should never regret any of our actions, because no matter what we do we can tell ourselves that people we hurt are better of because of my actions. How can we ever ask for forgiveness with a straight face without regretting our actions, and desiring to not have done them? Here is a statement that I made to Michelle earlier in this thread. Perhaps you could read it and respond. Robin |
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 20, 2009 19:03:03 GMT -8
Hi Robin:
Okay, let's see if I can do a better job of explaining what I am thinking here:
You said: Of course people would be better off if we did not hurt them.
Really? I don't think I can make that assumption.
I cannot know if people are better off if I do not hurt them.
I believe the only one who has the wisdom to say that is God.
I know I can certainly testify to brothers and sisters who have done terribly unjust things to me.
Yeah, they HURT me.
How could they know God was going to use it to teach me a watershed lesson? I'd let them hurt me ten more times to gain the wisdom God gave me from those experiences!
In other words, when they hurt me, they made my life better.
You said: If you are correct, why should we ever ask for forgiveness?
I don't ask forgiveness because I hurt them. I ask for forgiveness because I did something wrong in God's sight.
My prime motoivation in asking forgiveness is that I
purposely chose to do something to a brother or sister that I know God does not allow.
Sure, I may DEFINITELY also be sorry for hurting them at that moment. But I am not wise enough to know what God is eventually going to do with that. If that is going to end up being the worst thing that ever happened to them, or the best.
Hope this doesn't sound unfeeling to you, but in my mind the distinctions are important.
|
|
|
|
Post by robin on May 20, 2009 21:12:15 GMT -8
Well, I can. It's common sense.
Even if that were true, and I don't believe it is, then why now error on the side of caution.
And God has revealed that wisdom to us by giving us his word, and his Holy Spirit.
Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1 Corinthians 13:1-7
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Bold mine
Just because God can redeem anything from a bad situation does not mean that God prefers that evil take place. I think the bible is very clear about doing evil, and hurting others.
You say that you ask for forgiveness because "I did something wrong in God's sight". Well what would that be? Perhaps hurting other people is wrong in God's sight.
And if I understand you correctly your positions is that even though you chose to do something to a brother or sister that I know God does not allow, If you could go back and change the past you would not.
By the way, God allows us to due anything we want, but often we act outside of his will, and when doing so we are sinning. Sinning requires repentance, repentance leads to forgiveness. Perhaps I could trouble you for your definition of repentance.
However, we are wise enough to read Gods word and its seems rather clear on this topic. Please see the scriptures that I quoted above.
You are right, they are extremely important. It's one of the reasons that I chose the topic of forgiveness for my teaching at church last week. I wish you could have come.
|
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 20, 2009 22:34:36 GMT -8
Hi Robin: I disagree. ---Any input from any others?   |
|
|
|
Post by Josh on May 21, 2009 10:00:21 GMT -8
Well, I am persuaded that it would be always best to follow God's will rather than disobey him. In that sense, it always would have been better not to sin against your brother or sister.
However, and I realize this is largely a matter of semantics, one can hurt someone innocently, or even for their benefit. Doctors hurt their patients. God takes us through pain with redemption in mind. It's not so much the feeling as the sin that's important in this discussion, right?
|
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 21, 2009 14:12:13 GMT -8
I would agree, but I also realize we've gotten away from the two choices you originally laid out:
a) If I was transported back in time, would I choose differently?
and
b) If I had the choice to go back in time, would I?
I guess I am just saying no to b.
(Boy I gave some long answers to a short question!)
|
|
|
|
Post by robin on May 21, 2009 15:18:59 GMT -8
Hi Josh,
Right Josh, it is the cases where we hurt others because we sinned against them, not hurt them because it is necessary in order to save or help them.
My point is this. It would be disingenuous for me to ask for forgiveness, and claim that I am repentant, when if I were given the opportunity to go back in time and correct my mistake, I would choose not to.
Margot,
When I replied last night I asked you some specific questions in order to further understand your position, in your response you said simply that "I disagree". I don't understand your reply. what I wanted was for you to address my questions. I already understood that we disagreed, that was made clear early on. The goal in a discussion like this is to better understand what others think, and to try and explain our own views. this is what I was hoping for. If you don't want to discuss this with me any further, I am content with dropping it.
God bless,
Robin
|
|
Laine
New Member
Posts: 4
|
Post by Laine on May 21, 2009 18:43:30 GMT -8
I'm confused, Margot, are you now saying that you wouldn't go back in time, but if given the same situation today you would not hurt (sin against) anyone? Are you recanting your opinion that by sinning against someone, you are doing Gods' will because he may redeem that injury for good in that person's life?
Also, I am confused at your view of when you ask for forgiveness.
I believe a person owes another an apology and thus a repentant heart asking for forgiveness if that person hurt the other, regardless of whether they did it in purposeful rebellion from God or ignorance as to the consequences of their actions. There are times when someone could cause a person harm and not be sinning against God at all, yet owe that person an apology. For example, if a friend of mine had just lost a child, but I was not aware of this and made a comment to that person about what a pain kids are. This would cause that person pain. They could even be offended by my comment. I would feel compelled after finding out their circumstances to apologize to that person. I would be repentant and ask that person for forgiveness of my heartless comment, even though I didn't mean that person harm when I did it. In this situation I did not purposely do something that God doesn't allow, I was just making idle chit chat with the person. However, I would absolutely choose not to say such a thing if I could go back and do things over.
Please clarify. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Margot on May 21, 2009 20:08:33 GMT -8
I already understood that we disagreed, that was made clear early on. The goal in a discussion like this is to better understand what others think, and to try and explain our own views. this is what I was hoping for. Hey Robin: Maybe I'm not as clear as I think I am about the boards. I wasn't thinking that there was a specific "goal" we were trying to meet in a discussion, or that I always have to back up my positions. Sometimes I have thoughts or feelings about things that I want to express, but I don't necessarily need to "defend them to the finish." Many times it is okay for me to just throw out what I think, hear what others think , take it in and agree to disagree. Or maybe--- ---just think about it some more later. I am getting the feeling that is not okay, so maybe I've misunderstood??? Hey Laine: I think I may be confused about what you're confused about!  ! You said: Are you recanting your opinion that by sinning against someone, you are doing Gods' will because he may redeem that injury for good in that person's life? Whoa! I have never ever said that by sinning against someone, I am doing God's will!!!!! What I said was : I don't have any way of knowing what good God will bring out of something bad I do. I was responding to Robin's statement: Of course people would be better off if we did not hurt them.I don't think I have the power to know that. I don't like to make statements like that because I believe God is the only one who knows the answer to that question and how it will all come out in the end. i.e. I do not think it as cut and dried as it appears. I am hearing that you think that gives me the right to go around hurting people here and there and leaving the clean-up to God. That is not what I said. That is not what I meant. I'm pretty clear that God's will is not for us to run around hurting people without worrying about the consequences! I thought the example you made of hurting your friend (re: the baby) was very interesting--it made me think. BTW----"recanting" is a word I have not heard in ages--as in Middle Ages!(For a Word Freak like me, that is saying something!!!!!) I associate that with someone that's taking back a confession ala Joan of Arc. If I were taking anything back, believe me, I'd spell it out, not just imply it ;D |
|
Laine
New Member
Posts: 4
|
Post by Laine on May 21, 2009 20:40:34 GMT -8
Margot,
I'm glad you believe that God does not want us to hurt others. I am not one to write on the boards unless I am VERY moved to do so, because I hate debating. I was just extremely concerned about where this thread was going. It seems to me that not wishing to go back and right our wrongs is being unrepentant. To say, "I'm sorry you were harmed by my actions, but I would not change what I did." Is not an apology to the person or to God. True repentance is to turn away from the sin in every way including wishing it had never happened. There is plenty of evil in this world for Satan to use to "shape us," which I agree God allows to happen to help us grow in our relationship with him. Satan does not need the brothers and sisters in Christ to do his bidding. I truly believe that if we never sinned against our brothers and sisters their lives would be even better than they are now. Since we are not perfect, that is not possible, but to long for it delights the Lord.
Laine
|
|
|
|
Post by Josh on May 22, 2009 6:45:36 GMT -8
If you take a look at the "purpose of the boards" I think you'll all find that your various approaches fall within the spectrum of what these boards are about. Still, if a conversation can continue respectfully, I do think it's good to trace thoughts to their conclusions. Taking off admin hat now.  Have a great weekend y'all! |
|
;D
Perhaps we should never regret any of our actions, because no matter what we do we can tell ourselves that people we hurt are better of because of my actions. 
!