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Post by Josh on Apr 15, 2009 18:58:59 GMT -8
So, I've noticed a fair amount of hostility among a fair amount of Christians in regard to "psychology" over the years- ranging from disparaging comments to full-scale attacks.
I'll state my bias up front- I think psychology, like other academic and scientific disciplines (even though it is a "soft-science") is a neutral tool that can be applied to much benefit by the Christian.
That there might be particular theories within the field of psychology that might come into conflict with reason, evidence, and our faith, is of course assumed, as in any discipline.
But, I ask, for what reasons is there so much disdain among certain Christians for the field of psychology? What problems do any of you see with either a) psychology as a whole or b) aspects of popular psychology.
I've got some of my own ideas. What are yours?
If you're not a Christian, what do you think of psychology in general? (positives and negatives)
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 16:48:49 GMT -8
So, I've noticed a fair amount of hostility among a fair amount of Christians in regard to "psychology" over the years- ranging from disparaging comments to full-scale attacks. I'll state my bias up front- I think psychology, like other academic and scientific disciplines (even though it is a "soft-science") is a neutral tool that can be applied to much benefit by the Christian. That there might be particular theories within the field of psychology that might come into conflict with reason, evidence, and our faith, is of course assumed, as in any discipline. But, I ask, for what reasons is there so much disdain among certain Christians for the field of psychology? What problems do any of you see with either a) psychology as a whole or b) aspects of popular psychology. I've got some of my own ideas. What are yours? If you're not a Christian, what do you think of psychology in general? (positives and negatives) I think a Christian must be very careful how he/she approaches the subject of psychology. Psychology in and of itself is neutral -- it can be used by Christians for God's glory, but it can also be used as a tool to pull people away from God. The main danger that I see within psychology is when God is left out of the picture. If God is left out, then all you have left is a humanistic ideal. Within the humanistic and personal growth part of psychology, there is currently a tendency towards New Age type beliefs. People are taught to rely on themselves and their own potentials. This can definitely lead to a person placing themselves in the place of God, and cause them to turn away from Him. I took a personal growth psychology class in college. My professor basically told us that he believed in New Age spirituality. It was a seminar class, so my professor would ask us a question and we would discuss it. While I thought that a lot of the ideas about growing as a person were good, I felt that it was necessary to bring God into the discussion. And that is exactly what I would do when it was my time to comment. I had to do a "self-improvement" project for class. What I did was tell my professor that it wouldn't be me that would be the one who was changing me, but rather, it was the Holy Spirit who would convict me of things, and lead me. And this is exactly what happened. There are a lot of psychology ideas that can support what the Bible teaches. For example, the cognitive counseling can be very much supported by Scripture. With psychology, the danger is always when a person tries to talk about human growth or change without God. Also, there are some theorists that I have a problem with. Carl Jung is one of them -- he was deeply involved in the occult. Much of his theory comes from his experience with the occult. While there might be some good ideas that Carl Jung proposed, I would suggest that Christians stay away from him and his theories. Did Jung talk about spirituality? Yes. But it was occult spirituality. I would advise all believers to exercise discernment when reading psychological literature and theories. People should really know their Bible. If what is said goes against Scripture, Christians should not put muck stalk in what is being taught by that psychologist. This is not to say that believers should dismiss everything that the psychologist says, but the Christian needs to learn how to relate it to Christ. I personally do not like most of the theories in psychology. The only ones that I really like are cognitive and behavioral, and those, only when they are related back to Christ. There are some Christian psychologists and counselors. One counselor who uses a lot of cognitive theory in his work is Robert McGee. (He wrote the book called The Search For Significance. It's an awesome book. It is authors like this that make psychology biblical.  |
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2009 18:59:11 GMT -8
Your comments on Jung made me think of a classic song from the 80's by Steve Taylor (ever heard of him?) It's call "Jung and the Restless" and is classic Taylor sarcastic wit: In the corner was the doctor
He said, "How may I assist?"
She said, "Doctor give me something
I divorced my analyst!"
He said, "Chemicals won't help yet
(I'm a doctor, not a musician)
let's both try some word association"
he said, "Love."
she said, "You bet."
Rushed from the fire to the frying pan
entrust your soul to a shrinking man
Jung and the restless
Pleasant dreams
Gotham's got religion
Fifty minutes from the corner of your mind
To the center of the new redemption
Jung and the restless
Primal screams
Ain't showbiz bewitching?
First came stats pulling habits out of rats
Now they may need more attention
She said, "What can I believe in?"
He said, "Don't believe, just...be"
She said, "You've got to give me one good reason to live"
He said, "Hmmm...I gotta be me"
Served with smiles and a noble intent
I think this waiter's got a fake accent
"So tell me about this latest dream."
"I was in a mental ward
For a little shock treatment
When a sudden power surge zapped me with two thousand volts
Then I floated down a tunnel to a shining man in white
And when I could finally make it out his face it was...
It was you, doctor"
"So what's the problem?" Back in a while with some more thoughts. |
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 19:28:29 GMT -8
Your comments on Jung made me think of a classic song from the 80's by Steve Taylor (ever heard of him?) . No, never heard of him. Anyway, just for anyone who is unfamiliar with Carl Jung, even my secular textbooks acknowledge that Carl Jung was deeply involved in the occult. I thought that I would put that out there because I know that there are Christian sources that mention this as well. But for a secular source to mention it....I think it testifies as to just how deeply he was involved in the occult. |
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2009 21:03:24 GMT -8
So, on the brighter side of psychology, and let me just say up front that (in addition to my pastoral responsibilities) I'm a high school teacher at an alternative school for kids with behavioral difficulties so I've my share of psychology classes and trainings, etc.., but it has been a while since I studied pyschology "from the text", so I might be a bit rusty. I've got a lot of problems with Freudian pychology, not necessarily in his descriptive observations but in his conclusions and explanations*. Jung had issues too  , though I seem to recall a few points of agreement with him. But there are others who I have some respect for- Gardiner, Maslow, Adler, for instance, though, again it's been a long time. Most of the classes I took regarding pyshcology focused on human development, and it's particularly in that area that I think the discipline of pychology has helped more than harmed in the 20th Century. Understanding how children learn and grow, and how events they experience affect them far into the future is a modern insight that can be used powerfully in the service of the Kingdom. Also, another thing that psychology has brought to us is an expectatation that parents and children communicate more, than wives and husbands communicate more, etc... This was a necessarily corrective to some of the dysfunctional family dynamics that were entrenched even just 50 years ago. Of course, there have been a number of new threats to healthy families that have risen to take their place, but...  Ok, that was a hastily typed post, but I hope you get the drift. *Now I just thought of a book to recommend that you'd probably love- it's called "The Question of God" by Armand Nicholi and it's a hypothetical debate between CS Lewis and Freud- an excellent read!!! |
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2009 21:05:05 GMT -8
Oh, and it's way cool to be having this discussion with someone in the field of counseling. |
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 27, 2009 4:38:02 GMT -8
So, on the brighter side of psychology, and let me just say up front that (in addition to my pastoral responsibilities) I'm a high school teacher at an alternative school for kids with behavioral difficulties so I've my share of psychology classes and trainings, etc.., but it has been a while since I studied pyschology "from the text", so I might be a bit rusty. I've got a lot of problems with Freudian pychology, not necessarily in his descriptive observations but in his conclusions and explanations*. Jung had issues too , though I seem to recall a few points of agreement with him. But there are others who I have some respect for- Gardiner, Maslow, Adler, for instance, though, again it's been a long time. Most of the classes I took regarding pyshcology focused on human development, and it's particularly in that area that I think the discipline of pychology has helped more than harmed in the 20th Century. Understanding how children learn and grow, and how events they experience affect them far into the future is a modern insight that can be used powerfully in the service of the Kingdom. Also, another thing that psychology has brought to us is an expectatation that parents and children communicate more, than wives and husbands communicate more, etc... This was a necessarily corrective to some of the dysfunctional family dynamics that were entrenched even just 50 years ago. Of course, there have been a number of new threats to healthy families that have risen to take their place, but... Ok, that was a hastily typed post, but I hope you get the drift. *Now I just thought of a book to recommend that you'd probably love- it's called "The Question of God" by Armand Nicholi and it's a hypothetical debate between CS Lewis and Freud- an excellent read!!! Agreed -- there are definitely good things that psychology itself has brought forth. The idea of trying to understand a family from a systems perspective has been helpful. As have such things as communication among family members -- communication can be worked on from a behavioral approach. With behavior, the idea is to change a specific a person or persons act. You can work on communication -- and specific ideas of how to do this. And with Jung or any of the other theorists, there are some good points that can be found in what they say....however, I was just saying that Christians need to use discernment. Not everything that the theorists say is biblical, and therefore, it should not be taken as complete truth. I would issue a special warning in regard to Jung because of his involvement with the occult. I know people in my classes who take what these people say as if it is gospel truth, and hold it up as THE explanation for why people are the way they are. I'm taking a developmental class right now. We're reading one secular textbook and then several "Christian" textbooks on the topic. There is a reason I put that in quotes. The authors of these Christian textbooks are taking everything that theorists say as if it were true. They are also defining faith very liberally. As my professor said, "faith is being open to the world." As it is presented in my textbooks, faith has nothing to do with God's work in people's lives. What's being taught in my class has nothing to do with what Scripture says. There has not even been mentioned anything about conversion, reliance on Christ, a personal relationship with Him, or growing in Him. Rather, it's all been about "this age group must accomplish this goal at this stage of life." It's all been worldly stuff with no consideration for how the Holy Spirit might work in someone. Nothing is said about sanctification. It is so frustrating. I'm sure there are some good Christian counselors and psychologists who have written from an actual Christian perspective. I just have not been exposed to them because this school is liberal, as are my professors. I'm honestly questioning whether or not I should become a professional counselor. |
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2009 17:03:31 GMT -8
Not to discount the miraculous, but these kind of things are the normal way we as humans work. I mean, I work with kids every day who have a mountain of problems because they missed some very important, crucial points of development.
God could work a miracle and somehow obliterate these obstacles in their lives (and our lives), but often the Holy Spirit chooses rather to make himself known despite (even through) our weakness.
So, understanding why He made our bodies and brains this way, and how He made us to develop under normal circumstances is crucial if we want to help counsel others with more than just, "hope for a miracle, kid".
I'm absolutely certain that I'm not really responding to you directly here. I'm sure you're not discounting the value in these kind of things. I hear you that it's really frustrating that at a "Christian" school you aren't taught a Christian approach. So, take what I'm saying as just me talking about the subject alongside you.
Anyway, I guess part of what I might say to you is that you can learn anywhere, even if the envrionment is not ideal, right?
What exactly have you been hoping to do with your counseling degree (ie, what particular job)?
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 28, 2009 18:07:13 GMT -8
Not to discount the miraculous, but these kind of things are the normal way we as humans work. I mean, I work with kids every day who have a mountain of problems because they missed some very important, crucial points of development. God could work a miracle and somehow obliterate these obstacles in their lives (and our lives), but often the Holy Spirit chooses rather to make himself known despite (even through) our weakness. So, understanding why He made our bodies and brains this way, and how He made us to develop under normal circumstances is crucial if we want to help counsel others with more than just, "hope for a miracle, kid". I'm absolutely certain that I'm not really responding to you directly here. I'm sure you're not discounting the value in these kind of things. I hear you that it's really frustrating that at a "Christian" school you aren't taught a Christian approach. So, take what I'm saying as just me talking about the subject alongside you. Anyway, I guess part of what I might say to you is that you can learn anywhere, even if the envrionment is not ideal, right? What exactly have you been hoping to do with your counseling degree (ie, what particular job)? No, I'm not discounting the normal development stuff....but part of my class is supposed to also talk about faith development. And so we read textbooks by people who claim to be writing from the Christian perspective, but it is a liberal Christian one, and it completely leaves God out. Sure, it will use some sort of theological language to discuss things, but it doesn't say anything about an actual personal relationship with God. Of all the textbooks we have used in my counseling classes, I actually prefer the secular textbooks. Why? Because I'm free to read the material as is, and also allow God to point things out to me. When I read stuff by "Christian' writers, I constantly am having to fight off liberal theology. They'll make a statement, and in my head, I'm frustrated because that's not what I see in Scripture....or they don't go far enough. They refuse to talk about a personal relationship with Christ. I would rather them not talk about theological stuff if they're just going to talk about superficial theological babble that means nothing. No, I don't expect God to work miracles in those children's lives. What I would like to see the Christian textbooks talk about is how Christ is with them in their struggles, how as a person grows and develops in their relationship with Him, they can lean on Him...or how a relationship with Christ may address their issues. I'm not saying a relationship with Christ would solve all their problems. But I think that there is something that Christ offers, and I think that without a relationship with Christ people will not truly heal. I'm not saying nothing else needs to be looked at. We are all human, we all have faults, we all have areas of our lives that need work. These problems are real and need to be addressed in reality. I'm just saying that I don't think anyone can ever be fully healed apart from Christ. It's not that Christ is to take the place of other work that people need to do in their lives....but I do think that relationship with Christ is central to being emotionally healed. I guess my complaint with the "Christian" authors that we've read in class is that if they're not going to look to Christ or talk about Him, then they should not mention faith development at all. |
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2009 19:00:58 GMT -8
Yeah, that's really lame. Makes sense. Agreed. And, with all that said, it sounds like you shouldn't give up |
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Post by happyvalleymom.HREdgren on Nov 11, 2009 10:20:14 GMT -8
I didn't read all the previous posts under this topic in full but appreciated some of what I did read. I have to say from first hand experience that using the help of psychologist to understand my dysfunctional background has brought me closer to God. I imagine that God could have worked in other ways but this tool has been extremely effective and continues to be extremely effective in navigating through life without having been raised by stable parents.
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 10:26:17 GMT -8
Much agreed.
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, though I seem to recall a few points of agreement with him. But there are others who I have some respect for- Gardiner, Maslow, Adler, for instance, though, again it's been a long time.