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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2009 8:16:40 GMT -8
Post your comments/ questions/ discussion starters on Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 as replies to this post.Help us prepare for our teachings! 
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Post by Josh on Feb 10, 2009 17:03:49 GMT -8
A couple questions to reflect on, or strike out on your own:
What do we learn about Jesus’ human qualities and attributes in this reading? How is He like us?
Why is it important that our Savior be both God and man?
What is the most encouraging part of this reading?
What is the most challenging part of this reading?
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Post by rose on Feb 11, 2009 8:44:43 GMT -8
IMO the most challenging part of this reading is the dichotomy between Jesus being fully God and fully man while here on earth. Chapter 2, verses 14-18 talk about how Jesus shared in our "flesh and blood" - he took on our humanity in every way so that He could fully become our high priest...He was qualified to make atonement for our sins because He was God, but He also knew what it was like to be tempted and tested. I get all of that on paper, but trying to envision a perfect being truly dealing with temptation the way us regular humans do is difficult. Like Michelle said last night, "100% + 100% should equal 200%!" I know God's math doesn't always add up like we think it's supposed to, but it's another one of those, "it's fully this AND it's fully that, at the same time" concepts. You've just gotta love those!  Even though this was challenging to me, it was also most encouraging. To know that our Saviour did in fact experience temptation and suffering - He knows what it's like to walk in our shoes - He can truly empathize with where we're at in our lives. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 11, 2009 20:40:28 GMT -8
How much man and how much God? To be sure, it's a tough concept to grasp. Why do you think theologians fought so fiercely about it after the 4th century?  For me, it makes it easier to simply speak of the concept in biblical terms. Just to know that Jesus is the "express image" of God, and to have seen Him is to have "seen the Father". My glass of water is 100% water and 100% atoms. I'm 100% man, and 100% human, and 100% living organism. Probably a bad analogy, but that puts me in good company when it comes to describing God.  These chapters begin to expressly state the author's purpose to his readers...namely, don't fall away. Don't turn back to useless and defunct religion. Jesus being made "a little lower than the angels" (as we are), is simply saying that Jesus was capable of dying (angels are not). That's why He had to become human, so that He could be capable of dying and bring "many sons to glory". I tend to think that He was qualified to take away our sins because he was God's atoning sacrifice. He was the "lamb of God", and the only sacrifice perpetually acceptable to God. The mystery to me is that He is both that sacrifice, and the high priest that offers the sacrifice. He is forever both. Now, per Josh's request, I'll get on to my pet "out of context" peeve (not really) of the chapter ;D. Evangelists often rip these verses: Heb 2:3
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation
NKJV
Heb 3:7-8
Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts
NKJV and press them into their message to unbelievers as if to say... "Today, the Holy Spirit is talking to your heart, don't miss out on this opportunity for salvation lest God change His mind and there be no escaping the flames of hell". Totally not what the writer was intending. He's talking to people who are believers already, warning them not to rebel from what they've been given through the words of Jesus. Remember, at the beginning of the book, the author tells his readers God "spoke to us through His Son". Just like with Moses, God's voice was the prophetic and authoritative word of Jesus, who has replaced Moses as the prophet to heed: Deut 18:15
15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear
NKJV
Matt 17:5
5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"
NKJV
[/blockquote] I don't believe the "neglecting of salvation" is speaking at all about a ticket to heaven named "salvation", but rather faithfulness in the things that accompany salvation (Heb 6:9) which the writer will constantly remind them to do. |
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2009 20:46:24 GMT -8
Rose wrote:
I think this is a hard concept for us because we're used to thinking of God and man as two distinct and mutually exclusive categories.
But, if you think about it, I am fully a father and a husband at the same time. Such a role analogy might not be a perfect comparison, but it's an example of how we might think of the paradox of Jesus being fully Bod and man.
Rose wrote:
Great question. I've already heard several of you voice it. I hope to spend some time on this this Sunday (one of my favorite Hebrews themes). Here are the verses most relevant to this question.
Hebrews 2:17-18
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin
If Jesus was without sin (morally perfect), then could he really know what it's like to be human? Can he truly sympathize with us?
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2009 20:50:43 GMT -8
Chris, do you think in light 2:17 (above) that being made "a little lower than the angels" might mean more than just becoming able to die?
In becoming human, Jesus divested himself of many other things as well, imo. I hope to investigate some of them this Sunday.
Oh, and agreed on the "neglect" and "hardening of the hearts" warnings are not focused on the unbeliever, but on the believer.
When we hear these words instead of looking around the room for someone who doesn't know Christ, we need to, as believers, ask ourselves about the condition of our hearts.
This is part of what I was referring to when I asked everyone if in their theology they had a place for "dangerous spiritual brinks". And if you do (I think Hebrews indicates you should), are you able to recognize them?
Our spiritual brinks might be different than those the audience of Hebrews was facing, but then again maybe not quite so different as we might imagine. How often are we tempted to replace the gospel with something more palatable, comfortable, and familiar?
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Post by christopher on Feb 11, 2009 21:51:50 GMT -8
It might, but I'm hard pressed to know why the author would be referring to any of that, when in the context, he's gives the reason for referencing that verse: Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
NKJV Yes. I do not hold the doctrine of OSAS. It's totally unbiblical IMO and I agree that Hebrews makes one of the strongest cases against it. Of course, I would hope so. However, since I've known people that have fallen or drifted away, I don't count on it. I trust in the Holy Spirit to convict me on such things, and in my brothers and sisters to correct me. I pray the church never gets to influenced by our PC culture to neglect that important responsibility. |
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2009 22:27:57 GMT -8
Heb. 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way..
I'm not going to stretch this passage to mean every conceivable way, but I'd venture to say that the author of Hebrews is talking about quite a few aspects of what it means to come in the flesh/ be made a little lower than the angels.
Also, in reading Psalm 8, where the quote originally comes from, it seems to me that the entire human experience is in view, not just mortality.
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Post by Josh on Feb 12, 2009 20:45:41 GMT -8
Thinking about Hebrews 2-3 along with the Early Church Fathers:
Augustine says that because Jesus became human, he is the perfect mediator between God and man, giving us direct access to God. Therefore,
"we need not seek other mediators to serve like rungs on a ladder of ascent. For the blessed God who makes us blessed by deigning to share our humanity showed us the shortest way to sharing in his divinity".
Chris wrote:
Apparently Ambrose was highly impressed with this too:
"Preist and victim, then, are one..."
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Post by christopher on Feb 13, 2009 19:56:19 GMT -8
Ok, so it’s been a few days, but better late than never.
I don’t disagree with your premise, I’m just not sure it’s found in these verses. I think the passage is very clear about the reason Jesus was made a “little lower than the angels” and what that actually means.
But I do agree that (as kind of a bonus consequence) He is able to relate to our temptations since He experienced them in the flesh. But keep in mind, the word in this passage translated as “tempt” is also (and perhaps better) translated “test”. Jesus was tested and could have avoided the cross (the reason He came), yet He didn’t succumb to that temptation. And apparently the temptation was stronger than anyone has ever felt (He did sweat blood over it after all).
I believe the author is seeking to encourage his (or her) readers in their suffering and temptation to turn away from the faith by lifting up Jesus (in all His humanity) as the example that it can be done.
I realize that there is the temptation to read passages like this and look for a “take away” for ourselves, namely to apply “tempted” here as we generally think of the word in the context of our normal temptations. But, instead of tweaking the meaning of the book in order to fit our own circumstances, it might be just as edifying to think that this may be us someday. Or, to realize that there are now (and always have been) believers who are in very similar circumstances as the Jews this was written to. The temptation give into persecution has been around since day one.
Anyway, I look forward to how you unpack this on Sunday.
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Post by Josh on Feb 13, 2009 20:44:00 GMT -8
Note how the emphasis on Jesus being made a little lower than the angels for the purpose of death, that you found in the New King James, isn't found in the NIV, NASB, or NRSV: Heb 2:9 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. * NKJV Heb 2:9 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. NIV Heb. 2:9 9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. NASB Heb. 2:9a 9but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death....NRSV Anyway, I definitely think the author of Hebrews and the New Testament in general presents us with a picture of Jesus as having faced a variety of tests/ trials/ temptations that are common to the human experience. ;D Well, Chris, since in chapter 4:15 the author of Hebrews says Jesus was tempted/ tested in every way, just as we are, I really do think he means more than the temptation to lapse back into Judaism. I think it even includes the temptation to read this passage that way *Frankly, this is one of those NKJV passages that I think is a grammatical nightmare ;D |
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Post by Josh on Feb 13, 2009 20:53:16 GMT -8
So, as to the question of whether Jesus, being morally perfect, can really truly relate to our temptations/ testings, C.S. Lewis has two very different but complimentary answers. I'll post both, but I find the second one most helpful in thinking about this.
We might ask ourselves how it could have been hard for Jesus, being God, to resist temptation. After all, doesn't it seem like it would have been "easy" for him to do so? Here's the first response from Lewis which is basically a reminder not to look a gift horse in the mouth:
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.
I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His sufferings and death lose all value in their eyes, "because it must have been so easy for him." Others may (very rightly) rebuke the ingratitude and ungraciousness of this objection; what staggers me is the misunderstanding it betrays. In one sense, of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them? The teacher is able to for the letters for the child because the teacher is grown-up and knows how to write. That, of course, makes it easier for the teacher; and only because it is easier for him can he help the child. If it rejected him because "it's easy for grown-ups" and waited to learn writing from another child who could not write itself (and so had no "unfair" advantage), it would not get on very quickly. If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) "No, its not fair!" You have an advantage! You're keeping one foot on the bank"? That advantage--call it "unfair" if you like--is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?
--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Post by Josh on Feb 13, 2009 20:57:34 GMT -8
But if that doesn't quite satisfy you, I really like his thinking here:
“No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good. A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. After all, you find out the strength of the German army by fighting against it, not by giving in. You find out the strength of a wind by trying to walk against it, not by lying down. A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness — they have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means — the only complete realist.”
-- CS Lewis, Mere Christianity
Wow. This is how Christ knows temptation better than any of us can even claim to.
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Post by Josh on Feb 13, 2009 21:01:00 GMT -8
Here's another helpful quote along these lines: "Both because Jesus had taken on our fallen condition and thus was vulnerable to the attacks of Satan and because he was filled with the Spirit and thus had clarity and holiness far exceeding our own, temptation confronted him with a sharpness and force we do not experience. Our minds and hearts are anesthetized and dulled by our concupiscence and personal sin. Moreover, because we almost inevitably conspire with the temptation to some degree, teasing it on, we never feel its full impact. Jesus, however, with complete clarity and perception, experienced both the entire allurement of temptation and, because he never conspired with it, endured the undivided assault of Satan’s attack."-Thomas G. Weinandy, In the Likeness of Sinful Flesh: An Essay on the Humanity of Christ (Edinburg: T & T Clark, 1993), 99. Take this link to a thread that deals specifically with these last 3 quotes: How can a pefect Jesus know what temptation is? |
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Post by Josh on Feb 16, 2009 19:40:33 GMT -8
Chris, you were asking about a recap of last Sunday. Well, it was a hodgepodge of the above points (particularly focusing on Lewis point about how Jesus being perfect understood temptation better than us). In addition, we discussed some of the implications of Jesus' humanity that we might not normally reflect on. We touched on the fact that Jesus, in coming fully in the flesh, took on every aspect of humanity that God originally intended. This includes the shocking fact that Jesus had to learn things, Jesus was a sexual being (though celibate), Jesus had our same bodily functions (without going into as much detail on this point as I did on Sunday  ), etc.. I think it's important to ruminate on these a bit because sometimes we have a tendency to denigrate phsyciality or bodily existence, but God does not. He created it. And he entered into it as well. I also explored the possibility (my personal opinion based on Scripture) that every supernatural aspect that Jesus had access to was dependant on his reliance on the Father and the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then it's just another way in which we can relate to the Son of God. He doesn't ask of us something he wasn't willing to experience. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 16, 2009 20:56:04 GMT -8
Dang! I'm sad that I missed your blasphemous talk about Jesus' sexuality . Just to catch up, as I said before, I don't disagree with the premise you (and the authors you quoted) presented. You won't get much argument from me there. Having said that.... you wrote: and All I can really say is that you can line up a hundred English translations against another and it really doesn't amount to much IMO. In cases (such as this one) where words can have a variety of meanings, it simply demonstrates that translation is much an art as a science (as well as translator bias). You already know that flow of thought means a lot to me when I read scripture and I think the KJV translators best follow that flow IMO. Especially since Jesus himself said similar things (John 12:27). I have used that verse many times myself to make the same point. However, when looking at the flow of thought thing again, I'm not sure the author is talking about Jesus' being tempted to flip the bird to the idiot driving next to Him, or to cheat on His income tax, or lie to His boss about being sick so He can get a day off. I'm not talking about merely a lapse back to Judaism, but I think what the author is really trying to get across is not allowing the pressures of persecution to harden your heart to God. Do not succumb to the one of the devils' tools to get you to deny God. Anyway, good discussion. And great job digging up some great quotes. |
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Post by Margot on Feb 17, 2009 8:37:31 GMT -8
I also explored the possibility (my personal opinion based on Scripture) that every supernatural aspect that Jesus had access to was dependant on his reliance on the Father and the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then it's just another way in which we can relate to the Son of God. He doesn't ask of us something he wasn't willing to experience. Two quick comments before I run to work. #1 I think the quote above from Josh really captures the heart of these verses for me. He KNOWS our sufferings. Really KNOWS, not imagines, conjectures, assumes. #2 I've said it before, and (I'm sure) I'll say it again: Dang! I wish I could be in church more often with you all. Just here feeling sorry for myself, Love, Margot |
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