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Post by Josh on Jan 1, 2009 22:25:29 GMT -8
Mo, Steve, or Aris...
I was surprised to hear about all the controversy in Germany surrounding the movie Valkyrie. Can you explain the exceptional hostility of German officials/ the German government toward scientology?*
*I'm no fan of Scientology, but here in the States a whole lot is tolerated when it comes to cults. That seems to be quite different in Germany.
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Post by moritz on Jan 2, 2009 3:49:20 GMT -8
Mo, Steve, or Aris... I was surprised to hear about all the controversy in Germany surrounding the movie Valkyrie. Can you explain the exceptional hostility of German officials/ the German government toward scientology?* *I'm no fan of Scientology, but here in the States a whole lot is tolerated when it comes to cults. That seems to be quite different in Germany. Well, I'm certainly not an expert on this issue. All I know is that scientology is considered to be less a religion but rather an economic organization with primaly financial interests. According to a court decision it hasn't got the status of a religion which would grant it considerable protection by the constitution. Furthermore it is accused of being totalitarian and anticonstitutional (that's why they are being observed by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution) with an extremist ideology. They are also accused of psychological manipulation (brainwash), financial exploitation and social disentaglement of its members. I've never seen any scientologist here although I know there are some. I can't estimate how dangerous they really are. To me personally, the story of Xenu & co. is just too flapdoodleish to even be considered. The ballyhoo around Operation Valkyrie can only be understood in the context of German history AND the Germans' feeling about their history. The Nazi era is the shame of this nation. Even today, more than sixty years later people are unable to speak reasonably about that time and regime*. The feeling of guilt persits and is reproduced on a daily basis by the government, the media and cultural events (the maxime is: never forget and never again!). Maybe it's just paranoia but concerning scientology all alarm bells are ringing. According to another post-war maxime (wehret den Anfängen! - Fight the beginnings) scientology, as a brainwashing, anticonstitutional, assumedly totalitarian sect is something like an enemy of the state. More or less. That one of the headmen of "such evil an organization" should embody an icon of resistance against evil has been percieved as a cynical disgrace. On the other hand, the state didn't seem to have such problems. According to Tom Cruise it paid parts of the expenses of the movie. Even after Schindlers List there seems to be a strong urge to remind the world that there were righteous Germans too. A blockbuster comes in handy.  *Let me explicate: the Nazis have got some kind of demon-status. People seem to pretend that it weren't really humans. Hence the story is being told in black and white. Nazis were bad in every way, period. I don't want to reduce the amount of evil they did, but everybody should know that humans are seldom entirely good or evil. But in the case of the Nazis the story looks different. Nazis didn't love their wifes and children, they ate them. You get the idea. I personally fully understand and agree with the necessity of not putting this decade ad acta and the danger of undemonizing the Nazis. But there is also the danger that by demonizing those people we forget that the potential of this evil rests in all of us too. That we are also capable of doing such horrific things. Anyway, Germany's calling is to to remember, learn and prevent such evils. But if a person in the public sphere says something like: "well, the nazis were horrific murderers beyond comparison but we have to face that we are still profiting from their investments into infrastructure (this means that you are basically saying: Not everything they did was evil)" you commit social suicide. This is what I mean when I say that a reasonable handling of that era is impossible. |
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Post by Josh on Jan 2, 2009 16:22:05 GMT -8
Thanks, Mo. That's very helpful to me in understanding the complexity of modern Germany vis a vis the past. Well said. On the subject of Scientology, perhaps I don't know enough about them (I've always considered them too flapdoodlish to consider). But it is strange to me that a country like Germany is so concerned about them while in the states their just one of many eccentric groups in a sea of new age religion. But that leads me to another question: If the German state labels something a cult or "anticonstitutional", what kind of powers does the German state then have over that organisation? Like, can they prohibit them from meeting? From receiving some kind of special tax status? Imprison the leaders?  Lastly, veering more into modern reflections on the Nazi era, did you see the German film "Downfall" starring Bruno Ganz as Hitler? If so, what did you think of it? |
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Post by moritz on Jan 2, 2009 18:10:12 GMT -8
On the subject of Scientology, perhaps I don't know enough about them (I've always considered them too flapdoodlish to consider). But it is strange to me that a country like Germany is so concerned about them while in the states their just one of many eccentric groups in a sea of new age religion. I don't know how concerned "so concerned" really is. Yes, the State observes scientology for the reasons I've named but it's not like scientology is on the news all the time or people would care much about them. I don't know how to describe it. Speaking for myself I can only say that I mistrust them more then other religions because unlike Christians or Muslims I doubt that there is genuine belief involved but rather fraud. But that leads me to another question: If the German state labels something a cult or "anticonstitutional", what kind of powers does the German state then have over that organisation? First off all it's everything but easy for the state to label an organization unconstitutional and take measures against it. This is also a result of the Nazi experience. For many years Germany has been trying to forbid a Neonazi party which is openly operating - without success. There has also been a Muslim who wanted to turn Germany into a caliphate (and I'm not talking about a regular nutter but a Leader with a considerable following). He was preaching openly against the constitution trying to bring about some sort of cultural war. It took the State many years and lots of embarrassment to even find the legal basis on which to decide his removal (he was a turkish citizen). And there are more examples. Scientology isn't officially declared anticonstitutional, hence they are a legal organization. They are being observed because of the suspicion of criminal action and an anticonstitutional agenda. Like, can they prohibit them from meeting? From receiving some kind of special tax status? Imprison the leaders? The fact that scientology is being denyied the status of a religion or religious group* already implies that they are also being denied the special tax status which religious groups possess over here. Churches have several tax advantages. They don't have to pay legacy tax, corporate income tax, they get money of the State for providing the public schools with teachers of religion (although this priviledge is - for some reason - reserved to the catholic and protestant church). Official churches are allowed to raise taxes on the believers (those taxes go directly into the pocket of the churches, the State merely helps them to collect the money), etc. etc. Now what happens if a cult is being forbidden. I don't know. I would assume that those people would be forbidden to gather for the purposes of a continuation of their business. Unless none of them personally committed a crime they can't be imprisoned or forbidden to meet - that's their elementary right. So let's say scientology was forbidden, then they could still meet under a new name. The State then would have to prove that they are ignoring the ban, before they could take any measures. So a ban couldn't really stop anyone. It would only put obstacles in their way because they wouldn't be able to promote their organization openly, for instance. *note that the denyial of the religious status has nothing to do with the supposed anticonstitutional agenda. The court decision denyed that status because according to the evidence Scientology wasn't a religion but an economic organization. Lastly, veering more into modern reflections on the Nazi era, did you see the German film "Downfall" starring Bruno Ganz as Hitler? If so, what did you think of it? Yes I have. Heavy stuff. That scene when Martha Goebbels kills her children because she doesn't want them to live in a world without national socialism... I think the movie exposed the insanity of those people quite well. And Bruno Ganz did a good job too. Did you see it? what were your impressions? |
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Post by rose on Jan 4, 2009 21:04:23 GMT -8
oh...that Martha Goebbels scene with her children haunts me even now...very horrific stuff. I thought Bruno Ganz did an exceptional job in portraying Hitler...the whole movie seemed entirely realistic (or was that just because it was in German? ) I also appreciate your bit of explanation on Germany history and how that correlates with current Scientology issues. It makes a lot of sense and I can see why there might be a bit of worry. |
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Post by Josh on Jan 5, 2009 12:00:27 GMT -8
I thought it was so well done I bought it for my library.
They did a remarkable job capturing Hitler's deterioration and increasing lunacy/ fanaticism while at the same time paradoxically focusing in on the "kind" side of his persona (eating dinner with friends, petting his dog). That took a lot of guts and in the end makes Hitler all the more horrific in that he's portrayed as a real man.
I also have a documentary about Traudl Junge, Hitler's secretary, who is featured in Downfall, that is quite fascinated. Perhaps you're familiar with that as well?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 21, 2009 19:51:03 GMT -8
If Scientology is a religion then all other self help program should also become religions. Imagine the Church of Gene Simmons . . . UHG!
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Post by Josh on Aug 23, 2009 19:02:43 GMT -8
 At least you didn't say Richard Simmons. 
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 17:46:18 GMT -8
Crud, that is who I meant. LOL
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