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Post by Josh on Oct 15, 2008 20:30:48 GMT -8
I'm someone who would love to see Roe v. Wade overturned. However, I also see the main battle against abortion to be one of spiritual climate rather than legislation and the means of the warfare to be winning hearts and minds against abortion one at time more than tantalizing but elusive supreme-court nominations. I am one who has come to question one-issue voting allegiances, but I still have to say that my biggest objection to Obama is his stance on abortion. There are other things about Obama I really like, some that I'm unsure about, but this is one that sticks in my craw. Though he says he desires to see less abortions, why can't he at least help champion the case against late trimester abortions? And I wasn't satisfied with his answer to McCain's question as to why he didn't vote for medical care for victims of failed abortion attempts. The hyppocratic oath is enough? Hello!if it was enough, we wouldn't have legalized abortions in the first place. He says he doesn't get paid enough to weigh in on when life begins! Well, if he's even open to the possibility that life begins at conception, why isn't he fighting tooth and nail against abortion? If I knew that I might possibly be killing someone by a certain action, you'd bet I wouldn't be sitting around waiting for a pay increase to make a decision on what to do about it. Though I think any intellectual compromise on abortion is weak, if there needs to be compromise to reduce abortions in the short run, I am cautiously for that. But when every attempt to rein in abortion is met with "this is a slippery slope toward overturning roe v. wade" then that, in my opinion, only serves to underscore the pro-choice quasi-religious worship of choice over life itself. This is probably the moral/ politic issue I get most fired up about. We're talking about human lives here for crying out loud! Arghhhh. I hate politics.  I still don't know who I'm going to vote for... or if I'm going to vote. And no, I'm never going to tell any of you who I voted for  |
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Post by moritz on Oct 17, 2008 6:45:59 GMT -8
I still don't know (...) if I'm going to vote. I give you $1000 if you hand your right to vote over to me and vote who I tell you to...!! ;D (again I'm missing the grinning-devil-smiley) |
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Post by robin on Oct 17, 2008 8:09:49 GMT -8
Obama says he wants to reduce the number of abortions, but it is important to look beyond the rhetoric and look at the record. Obama said "The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That's the first thing that I'd do." He was speaking to planned parenthood on July 17, 2007. What is the freedom of choice act? Well to sum it up, the purpose of the bill would be to allow total un-fettered access to abortion, regardless to the timing or reason (late term, partial birth included). So josh, or any others who consider this to be an important issue, ask yourselves this. If Obama wants to see the number of abortions reduced, then why would he support this legislation ? Here is the text of the "Freedom of Choice Act" www.nrlc.org/FOCA/FOCA2007HR1964.htmlSo please folks, if the abortion issue is important to you, it does matter who is going to be President over the next four years. Innocent un-born children cant afford 2-3 more Ginsbergs on the Supreme Court. Are there any doubts that Obama will appoint justices who are militant pro-abortionists? Keep in mind, the legislative branch will stay in control of the Democrats. There will be no or little conservative resistance if Obama is elected. All of the liberal agendas, including abortion, will fly through congress and meet no resistance from a President Obama. On the other hand, we will have a nice check and balance with a President McCain. McCain will certainly Veto legislation designed to expand access to abortions, and Democrats will need a super majority to enact their culture of death legislation. This is truly on the the great moral dividing lines in our society, and it saddens me to see Christians so willing to support political candidates who are pro-choice, especially those with who can have such a large impact on this issue. God bless, Robin |
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Post by Josh on Oct 17, 2008 10:03:23 GMT -8
Mo: I don't think Richard Dawkins can run for President (foreign born and all that)  Robin: back to you when I get a chance. |
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Post by moritz on Oct 17, 2008 15:02:24 GMT -8
Mo: I don't think Richard Dawkins can run for President (foreign born and all that) just do me a favor: use your priviledge and vote! no matter who you choose. I think you got two good candidates this time! |
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Post by Josh on Oct 17, 2008 16:19:31 GMT -8
Mo:
If only 'twere that easy. Maybe I need to write someone in.
Robin:
Most Christians I know who are voting for Obama won't be voting for Obama because he's pro-choice. There are so many issues at stake with any candidate, many of them with moral implications. I understand that Christians are often trying to vote in the lesser of two evils.
On the issue of abortion, if it were 90% positive that voting in McCain would overturn Roe v. Wade I would not hesistant vote for him, all other things considered. But a big part of me says that Republicans use "overturning roe v. wade" as a unacheivable carrot they dangle over those who hate abortion (just like democrats like Obama dangle the opposite carrot- fear of Roe v. Wade being overturned). The real question is how much power does a presidential candidate really have in effecting that change?
I hear you that, theoretically, McCain would have the best shot at finally acheiving it, so that's tempting to hope for. But there are other things I dislike about McCain, and some things I like about Obama. Voting solely (or almost solely) for the abortion issue seems like spending a lot of money trying to win the lottery. But, again, I think the odds of winning the lottery have increased.
But one thing I do know for sure is that if we as Christians persuaded more people against abortion, then this would eventually be a nil issue. What if we could persuade even 10% more of the population? Then I think we'd find many more possibilities to ending the holocaust.
A question for all of us who oppose abortion:
Who was the last person to whom you made an intelligent, informed, truthfully loving, persuasive appeal to change their mind on the issue of abortion?
(I've reworked the wording in that question several times and a better one just ain't coming, but you get the drift)
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Post by robin on Oct 17, 2008 16:47:50 GMT -8
I have spoken of this issue often here because it hits so close to home. I could go into it further in private with you. this just does not seem like to place to go into it. But as for those I have had hearth felt discussions with include my sister, and father (Biological). Also a young man and lady who were friends of a neighbor kid who had found themselves face with a unexpected pregnancy. What happened, I can't say, but I feel as if my pleas for life was received.
However I can't help but notice that you have not responded to my argument that Obamas perceived stance on abortion is nothing more than giving lip service to a national audience, and when speaking to Planned Parenthood he adopts a new position.
Even if we say that abortion is a secondary issue to many Christians, which is baffling to me, how about the pandering issue, and the issue of honesty that seems to be lacking in Obama.
Perhaps you could, as a pastor, share with me what you believe to be the most pressing issues for Christians to be concerned with when voting. And do any of those issues rise to the level of protecting innocent unborn children? The Idea that other issues surpass that if protecting innocent children from being murdered, strikes me as equal to turning a blind eye to the horrific worship of the pagan god Molek (sp?). As Christians if we put any issue above that of protecting innocent children, I must say that Christianity in our country is dead, and we are ripe for Judgment. I wonder how those small house churches in China would view this issue, and if they would hold the view that many in our communities.
Robin
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Post by Josh on Oct 17, 2008 19:46:13 GMT -8
A couple things.
First off, I corrected a sentence that would have been majorly understood in my previous post if left as it was. It now reads:
Most Christians I know who are voting for Obama won't be voting for Obama because he's pro-choice. instead of "most christians I know won't be voting for Obama because he's pro-choice" That "who are voting for Obama" was crucial.
Secondly, the question I posed was for all Christians, not just us. I have had several occasions also to share my views on the subject, but I am convicted that I should do so more. And I'm convicted that all Christians should do so more.
That wasn't intentional. I probably didn't respond because I agree with you. I do think it's lipservice for the most part.
I didn't say it was a secondary issue at all. In fact, it is a pressing issue of immense importance and consequence.
However, it is one issue of many to consider in deciding a President- precisely because a President normally has only a little power in that area.
Actually, as a pastor, I have a strong conviction that I should not directly influence your vote. My job as pastor is to help folks think "Christianly" and then vote their conscience from there.
I personally think it's out of place for pastors as representatives of churches to endorse candidates... though many do it.
Now, that said, I have no hesitancy speaking out against abortion as a moral evil. Christians need to do more of that, as well as reaching out to single mothers, adopting kids, offering true forgiveness and repentence to those who have chosen abortions, etc..
Robin, I feel your passion against abortion. I think the passion is justified, but I think that the energy is misplaced if railroading a political solution is seen as the ultimate solution. And it's always a bit dangerous to start pitting different moral issues against each other. Christians who vote for Obama will likely be thinking of the moral evils of war, of protecting the poor and needy, being a good example to the world, and a host of other things. You may think that those things don't belong under the pervue of government anyway, but it doesn't mean that those Christians aren't acting in good conscience. I think most Christians that vote for Obama simply don't believe McCain will end Roe v. Wade and don't think Obama will make it worse.
I think it's dubious and dangerous to judge other Christians by their vote. If we want a better barometer, let's ask what they believe is right and what is wrong and what they are personally doing about those things.
I'd love to talk with you about it more. It is a hard subject for certain with very personal and deeply felt connections.
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Post by robin on Oct 17, 2008 20:58:50 GMT -8
Hi Josh,
I really appreciate your views on this subject.
Real quick here. you said "Christians who vote for Obama will likely be thinking of the moral evils of war, of protecting the poor and needy, being a good example to the world, and a host of other things. You may think that those things don't belong under the pervue of government anyway, but it doesn't mean that those Christians aren't acting in good conscience"
Is it really your view that Democrats hold the moral hight ground on these issues? Please tell me that you haven't bought this line.
I would say more, but its late and I want to go to bed.
God bless,
Robin
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Post by nathaniel on Oct 18, 2008 19:43:47 GMT -8
I would say I have talked at length w/ about 5 peeps in the last 2 months about abortion, all of which are pro-choice, one of which just recently had an abortion. In each case no one denied the logical argument that a child before its born is still a human life. Yet, none of them could be persuaded to change their opinion. Granted it usually takes time to change strongly held beliefs, but I think there is some sort of emotional disconnect going on that I can't quite put my finger on. I also think that there is a lack of critical thinking and facts around this issue. Also, this is just an intuition I have, but some people may also be weary of being pro-life because they so disagree w/ some of the attitudes and ideologues that they see usually accompany "pro-lifers" (gay marriage stuff, anti-feminism stuff, republican stuff, etc.) that they don’t want to be mistakenly associated them.
As far as Obama goes on this issue, I've already stated I disagree w/ his position on this. My assumptions are that he has the same disconnect as the friends who I have with spoken w/ have (btw I think it's important not to demonize people who are pro-choice). Also I think Obama can at the same time say he wants to reduce the number of abortions but also not want to put more restrictions on abortion without, as was being alluded to, being a liar, i.e. work at reducing unwanted pregnancies.
Now, when it comes to actually voting with abortion in mind my thought process is as follows:
I am completely disenfranchised w/ the republican party and its tactics, rhetoric, and policy.
I am increasingly unconvinced that the current republican party has the desire or capability to actually reverse roe v wade.
As I said before somewhere republicans have held the presidency for the last 23 out of 35 years (as well as the senate at many times including 6 of the last 8 years) and that has done very little in terms of roe v wade.
I have recently been convinced that democratic/progressive policy on things like taxes, the economy, the middle class, the environment, foreign policy, etc are superior than those on the other side. And these things are the ones that actually seemed to move the government not abortion.
So, in IMO being pro-life isn’t a good enough reason to vote for someone, or more over being pro-choice doesn’t automatically disqualify someone from getting my vote.
A few other thoughts and questions I’d like to explore:
What are your reasons for being pro-life?
IMO, it seems like most non-christians I talk to have deemed the war in Iraq as either unjust or foolhardy while many Christians I talk to still come to it’s defense. I don’t know the history, but from the little I know, this was the case w/ the Vietnam war as well. Given most Christians pro-life position, and that these are “human lives we’re talking about here”, why is this? The same question would go for Christians zealous for the death penalty?
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Post by robin on Oct 18, 2008 22:05:45 GMT -8
Do you not recognize the difference in un-born children who entirely depend on the mother for their protection, and can in no way protect itself from a mother who is content on killing it. In the case of war we must recognize that innocent life is lost, but the level of injustice does not rise to that of abortion. Most killed in war are adults, or close to adulthood. Most actually enlisted to fight voluntarily, like our troops (with the exception of Vietnam). And those not enlisted as military, generally have some capacity to protect themselves. The idea of comparing war to abortion falls flat on it's face when these facts are considered. also, it must be pointed out that support for a war in no way means that war is pleasing to those who find it to be just. As one who does support the war, it saddens me deeply to hear of lost lives on both sides. However, I have considered the likely outcome of doing nothing or have a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq as Obama suggests, I honestly feel that it would result in more innocent lives being lost.
Also, to say that republicans have had control for 23 of the last 35 years does not take Congress into consideration. Also the branch of government most likely to effect this most important of issues is the Judicial branch. Not until a justice dies or retires from the bench, will we be able to change the status-quo. It appears at this time that 2-3 justices will retire in the next four years, or may not live out the full term of our next president. Now I personally believe that a couple of these justices are waiting for a Democrat to be elected in order that Roe V. Wade may stand with newly appointed justices who are liberal. With a McCain president, it is very likely that we could see more justices in the mold of Alito, Roberts, and Thomas who maintain the abortion should be an issue decided by the states, not the federal government. there is no doubt in my mind that Obama will look to appoint justices like Kennedy and Ginsberg, and that will have the sad result of locking up this issue for a long time.
Can you support this statement with any facts? President Bush, his father, Ronald Reagan, and John McCain, were and are all pro life. President Bush has been the greatest proponent of pro life issues. Just look at his record. Without a supper majority in congress, the president is not likely to have much success in advance his pro-life agenda.
God bless,
Robin
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Post by moritz on Oct 19, 2008 13:36:42 GMT -8
Mo: If only 'twere that easy. I can totally relate to your feelings here. I know how it feels when neither alternative really represents your interests. But theres another way to look at it. The democracies we live in aren't really democracies in the true sense of the word. The people de facto have very little power and influence. From this point of view you can't really let this one chance you get to participate in the democratic process once every four years go by. And as I said, I think both candidates you have this year are far better then 4 years ago. |
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Post by nathaniel on Oct 19, 2008 16:53:39 GMT -8
Do you not recognize the difference in un-born children who entirely depend on the mother for their protection, and can in no way protect itself from a mother who is content on killing it. In the case of war we must recognize that innocent life is lost, but the level of injustice does not rise to that of abortion. I do recognize a difference and never said that there wasn't one. My point in posing the question (and maybe I phrased it poorly) wasn't to point out that one injustice was greater than another, I was just pointing out something that seems peculiar and at times inconsistent to me. And, btw, I don't know if comparing an innocent human life lost in war verses an innocent life lost in an abortion quite "falls flat on its face." Comparing injustices I think is a tricky thing to do. Most killed in war are adults, or close to adulthood. I don't think that age really has much to do with anything when we are talking about innocent lives lost. And those not enlisted as military, generally have some capacity to protect themselves. Sometimes and sometimes not. And this is going down the road of putting the responsibility on the innocent to not get killed. Most actually enlisted to fight voluntarily, like our troops (with the exception of Vietnam) That only accounts for the lives lost in our military. And, just because it's a volunteer military doesn't justify us sending them to any old war. And Vietnam is a pretty big exception. These are sort of the inconsistencies I'm talking about. It seems to me that Christians are much too lax with their scrutiny of just war, particularly when America is involved. I would think since we claim to be pro-life w/ should be on the forefront of making sure wars are fought justly, waged under just pretences, and done only when completely necessary, and not bringing up the rear. However, I have considered the likely outcome of doing nothing... I realize that this is veering way off topic, but I'd be interested to here what you think would have happened if we never went to war w/ Iraq. Can you support this statement with any facts? President Bush, his father, Ronald Reagan, and John McCain, were and are all pro life. President Bush has been the greatest proponent of pro life issues. Just look at his record. Without a supper majority in congress, the president is not likely to have much success in advance his pro-life agenda. I would say 23 out 35 years of republican presidency is fact in itself. The republicans also had a majority rule in the senate 6 years under Reagan and 6 years under George W. Bush. Republicans also held the presidency when Roe v Wade decision happened. They also appointed 6 out of the 9 supreme court justices that decided Roe v Wade, as well as 7 of the 9 current supreme court justices. These seem to me like pretty strong facts that republicans either don't want to or are unable to reverse this decision. Actually, as a pastor, I have a strong conviction that I should not directly influence your vote. My job as pastor is to help folks think "Christianly" and then vote their conscience from there. I personally think it's out of place for pastors as representatives of churches to endorse candidates... though many do it. I completely agree w/ this and really appreciate it. I saw something on good old TBN today that was very disconcerting. |
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Post by Josh on Oct 19, 2008 19:29:32 GMT -8
A bit of catch-up:
Robin:
Well, I didn't say what my view is on any of those things. That would have distracted from the point I was trying to make... namely that there may be Christians who vote differently than we do not simply because they are irrational, but that they are applying a different logic.
Let me give an example here, though this might be a bit tangental. I'm not a pacifist (I'm talking about someone who opposes violence and warfare close to 100% of the time). I have some intellectual problems with that position. Still, I have a lot of respect for people who consistantly apply their pacifism. I respect the logic they bring to their position, though I disagree at the end of the day. Furthermore, I'm glad that there are thoroughgoing pacifists out there. I can see much good coming of it. I can see God's purposes at work in pacifists.
In general, Robin, it seems to me that you see all these political issues as much more black and white and easy to figure out than I do.
Years ago I used to think "no Christian could ever vote Democrat" but that was mainly because I was in an insulated environment exposed to few if any people who leaned toward Democrat (other than, notably, my grandfather). Since then I've met too many sober, informed, logical, followers of Christ who often vote for Democrats to be able to think like that anymore... even if I disagree with them on particular issues.
Simultaneously, the more I learn about the kingdom of God the more persuaded I am of the danger of blurring the lines between the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world. The lines overlap sometimes, and that's fine, but they must not become blurred. So, that has eroded some of my faith in any party.
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Post by Josh on Oct 19, 2008 19:39:16 GMT -8
Nate:
In my experience this is totally accurate... and very scary if a barometer of our society.
Knowing you are killing a human being but nihilistically doing it anyway is about the worst moral footing imaginable.
The other thing that gets me is people who say (sometimes people who profess to be Christians) I know it's wrong, but who am I to say it's wrong for someone else?
That logic may work in some sense on many moral issues (for instance, though we know certain actions are sins, aren't here to "judge the world", as Paul puts it), but the case of abortion it's not a "personal choice"- it is one person killing another innocent party.
To not speak out on this is like sitting by not getting involved while your neighbor is being beaten to death- worried more that we might be considered judgmental of the assailant.
The "emotional disconnect" you're describing is tangible in our society. I think it has a lot to do with the loss of moral bearings... increased separation from the certainty that God exists... video game mentality that encourages us to engage in immoral actions without the consequences... fast food consumerism which above all privacy the quick and efficient... pop-psychology which says the happiness of the individual is all-important. I could go on....
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Post by Josh on Oct 19, 2008 19:43:53 GMT -8
Nate: Robin, a while back you said you might start a thread on just war. You up for it or shall I? I think that would be a good conversation and deserves it's own thread. Lord knows a thread can't handle both abortion and war for too long  |
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Post by moritz on Oct 20, 2008 9:11:14 GMT -8
Knowing you are killing a human being but nihilistically doing it anyway is about the worst moral footing imaginable. I for one don't think an embryo is a human. But I'm against abortion anyway. surprised? |
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