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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 15:30:08 GMT -8
I mean that the vast majority of Christians had little power in Roman times. Furthermore, I would argue that obeying God, via obeying your leader under Nero would only be by very relative levels of degree less evil than under Hitler. In the case of Caligula you could even argue that obeying God by Obeying your leaders woudl be worse than obeying Hitler. I am unaware of Hitler personally having mass rapes put on for his personal entertainment.
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Post by Josh on Aug 24, 2009 15:43:31 GMT -8
therefore... what?
As to obeying your government, what do you think Paul is advocating then?
I think it's clear he's only saying that we should obey our government in every matter that does not contradict our faith.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 16:08:51 GMT -8
I disagree. Our faith, and the Gospel of Jesus sets a standard of living for Christians that is not conducive to existence within Roman Society.
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Post by Josh on Aug 24, 2009 16:15:06 GMT -8
I'm confused with what you're disagreeing with.
Here's an example: Jesus said we are to pay our taxes. This does not contradict our faith. Therefor, we should pay our taxes.
And again, what do you think Paul is saying in the Romans 13 passage?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 16:33:20 GMT -8
I believe that Paul is saying obey your government even when it contradicts what we would consider Christian values. For example the issue of Slavery. Many southern Theologians pointed out that Jesus did not directly free slaves and therefore slavery must be compatible with Christian living. Now all of Christendom condemns slavery as an absolute evil.
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Post by Josh on Aug 24, 2009 16:39:25 GMT -8
So you think Paul was wrong?
What's your view of the inspiration of Scripture?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 16:42:31 GMT -8
I believe that the Death Penalty will one day be looked at like Slavery. Something technically permissable by Scripture but so incompatible with the fundemental teachings of the Gospel that we shy away from it.
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Post by Josh on Aug 24, 2009 16:48:02 GMT -8
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 16:53:14 GMT -8
interesting.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 17:08:44 GMT -8
After reading that, I get your drift. However, I still believe after prayerful consideration that the Death Penalty will be found incompatible with the teachings of Christ. He taught the individual to merciful. I believe that Governments should also be merciful and protect their citizens at the same time. Life in Prison without parole protects me just as well as killing the condemned. It is also cheaper, because death penalty cases often cost several MILLION dollars in litigation and appeals.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 17:10:19 GMT -8
Furthermore, the government should be held to the standard of individual conduct as espoused by Christ because we now have democratic governments which are supposed to express the values of their people.
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Post by Josh on Aug 24, 2009 17:14:59 GMT -8
True enough, it was impossible to even consider lifetime imprisonment in the ancient world. One could definitely make the case that in the modern world imprisonment is more humane than capital punishment.
Also, you're right, democracies present some interesting complications to the whole question of individual vs. government responsibility.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 17:18:19 GMT -8
Then again, to refute my own point, Christ centered democracies are great, even secular ones with Christian traditions do a pretty good job. Others. . . not so much, point in case, Gaza who elected Humas where women can be stoned to death for being raped. In that case the 'will of the majority' is still objectively wrong.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Aug 27, 2009 18:48:51 GMT -8
lol
it wasnt exactly the death penalty that i was appalled at- it was his/her statement that the Torah is abolished by the cross.
i was more or less exaggerating when i said "chastisement." it is not my place to chastise. however, i can inform him of what i believe as truth, and the way i worded it was not really chastisement, more of correction. perhaps chastisement was the wrong word.
either way, i find the statemnt krh made repungent. that was the point of the post.
shalom- john
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Post by yeshuafreak on Aug 27, 2009 19:06:36 GMT -8
The first sentence i agree with. The first part of the second sentence was looking good to me.
then you said "incompatible."
as i think i made very clear in my earlier post, the gospel and the Torah do not contradict each other. however, the Yeshua does call us to a higher observance of the Laws of Torah. Instead of doing the permissable "eye for an eye" yeshua called us to turn the other cheek. instead of the required "one coat" Yeshua calls us to give two. the commandments are not incompatible, its just that Yeshua calls a stricter observance (the higher or better Torah) to his disciples.
but i agree that the death penalty will soon be viewed like slavery. It is technically permissable by scripture (but that is excluding the fact that we are to obey the law of the land- if the law calls a stricter observance than that of Torah than we follow the stricter observance. ), but it will not be done, and shunned down upon culturally.
i find no problem with the type of slavery that the bible describes: not owning the person, but making ther person work for you to pay off his debts, and only for seven years. plus, on the sabbatical year you are to release them unless they want to stay. slaves are not seen as a lower class, but as someone who is working for another person to pay off debts.
however, because of our history with slavery, we decided not to allow it. slavery was being misused and such. the bible never commanded slavery, but included the laws of slavery in Torah to keep it from being misused. this is the same with capitol punishment.
so my final verdict is this: let the law decide whether they want it to be allowed or not. i have no problem with it being allowed, no problem with it not being allowed. It is permissable by Torah under certain crimes, so as long as it is not executed under a crime that doe not have the death penalty as max punishment in Torah, i have no problem with it.
however, seeing as how we are all sinners i can see no reason why we should give the maximum penalty to anyone. show a little mercy unless there is no other way:
James 2:13 (CJB)
For [the] Judgment will be without mercy towards one who doesnt show mercy; but mercy wins out over judgement.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Aug 27, 2009 19:14:53 GMT -8
I disagree with this statement. i do not think that the bible ever says that we should follow the gevernment even when it contradicts the Truth. we are not even told that we should obey our parents in sin: eph 6:5 "obey your parents in the Lord for this is right." we are only commmanded to obey our parents when they are in the Lord. i would not listen to my parent if they told me to jump off a bridge, much less a government who tells me to deny my faith.
if what you are saying is true than there would be no reason for martyrdom: the reason that the Romans were killing christians was becasue they would not bow to the idols (i speak of the gentile christians, not the Jewish ones who were under "religio licita" because they were jewish) and flouting imperial rule becasue of their moral values. If Paul said to obey the Law even when it is contra to the Truth than there would have been alot fewer martyrdoms.
shalom- john
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 27, 2009 19:36:11 GMT -8
I personally hold a Jeffersonian view of Christianity to be honest. I put a lot more stock in the words of Christ than the words of Paul and when in doubt I lean on the Gospel.
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