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Post by meghan on Oct 31, 2008 9:35:46 GMT -8
Sure, maybe we are all supposed to be theologians. I don't know. What I do know is that i hate debating things, even discussing things, because I often come to a dead end in my thoughts, and I can't even make sense of what is going on in my own head, much less translate it into a coherent discussion. That's all. I've never been into that, and I tend to avoid it as much as possible. I post on a few other vaguely Christian message boards, and I am not one for debate/discussion.
I'm not a very open person spiritually, because of this. One of my best friends recalls that throughout our freshman year at Warner, having lived on the same dorm hall, it took her quite a while to come to the conclusion that I was a Christian... I never talked about it.
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Post by michelle on Oct 31, 2008 17:09:25 GMT -8
I'll be back with a couple questions for you and Michelle.... Uh oh! Just an FYI, I'm completely apathetic to anarchy. Just like every social and economic theory that I've studied I can see some value in it and see how theoretically it has some good things to offer, but when people have tried to put it in practice, the reality is different than the theory. There always have to be adjustments made to the theories because when in practice the systems would either fail to achieve the intended results or the systems would cause oppression of people. I do think that a lot of social and economic systems would work great on a small scale, but most of the time when they are put into practice on a large scale, things start happening much differently. It's too bad we can't self-govern in groups of about 30 people.  |
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Post by Josh on Oct 31, 2008 17:23:03 GMT -8
I'm mostly in agreement with this except that the verses seem to indicate that said authorities are established/instituted by God. That means that Paul in some way saw God as the establisher of Roman (!) authority even.
I don't see this as a blank-check endorsement of any state. I think all Paul is trying to say is that God has allowed states to rise and endowed them with authority in so much as they "restrain evil".
Agreed.
However, with the fall, even in the Church God has instituted some degrees of authority. Though I still think this is probably because of the fall and not the ideal arrangement.
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Post by Josh on Oct 31, 2008 17:23:52 GMT -8
Yeah, I know. Human difficulties seem a bit more manageable in the small tribe.
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Post by Margot on Oct 31, 2008 23:03:14 GMT -8
Meghan said: What I've been mulling over lately is that a capitalistic society doesn't seem right to me either, nor the obsession with politics, the effort of figuring out mine/yours, and the constant strain of Christians to become "relevant" to the society we inhabit. Thank you Meghan. I can't get away from the idea that it seems fundamentally wrong for us as believers to spend so much time and energy focusing on what is mine, who is stealing it from me, how I have to protect and defend it, who really deserves it and who doesn't, (AS IF I knew  ) and who should spread it to whom. We can quote bible verses till we're blue in the face, but I believe the spirit of the law comes down to: "give it away--as much and as often as possible." The idea that some people "deserve" grace in the form of more money, lower taxes etc. and some people don't, just makes my stomach hurt. It's called selfishness, and I'm pretty sure I am not supposed to have anything to do with it. --So, have I mentioned how DONE I am with this election? Thanks for the opp. to rant  |
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Post by Josh on Nov 1, 2008 18:52:21 GMT -8
Let me first say that much of what you both said here resonates with me. That said, just a few observations:
I do think there is something positive to be said, however, for the opportunity we have to choose how and to what end our resoruces will be given instead of the government making those determinations for us. At the same time, if we aren't giving, then the government thinks it has to pick up the slack.
This rubs a lot of different ways from a political perspective, though, correct?
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Post by Josh on Nov 1, 2008 18:57:48 GMT -8
Meghan wrote: What I've been mulling over lately is... the constant strain of Christians to become "relevant" to the society we inhabit.I think this deserves it's own thread, so I took the liberty to create one: Christians and Societal Relevancy |
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Post by robin on Nov 1, 2008 22:30:14 GMT -8
If I don't think you're giving enough away, perhaps it would be OK if I stole some of your things and gave them away? Would that be fair? Of course it wouldn't! It would be a sin, and an injustice. The same goes for politicians who want to steal our money for the sake of "giving it away".
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Post by Josh on Nov 2, 2008 8:25:50 GMT -8
So, I wasn't sure if you were kind of agreeing with me or disagreeing with me there (or maybe just adding another point?)
IMO, there does come a time when people simply aren't giving enough in a capitalistic society. That's the point where I would hope the church steps up to the plate and lives out our faith rather than the government getting increasingly involved. However, it hasn't always been the case that the Church has done our duty.
To me the biggest question is are we, the Church, doing what we should do despite our present political situation*. And that thought could keep one up at nights.
*but, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying voting and participating in our democratic system isn't part of it.
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Post by robin on Nov 2, 2008 8:49:32 GMT -8
I agree with you. Charity should be the churches territory, not government's. However, any charity needs to be given voluntarily.
Robin
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Post by Josh on Nov 2, 2008 9:00:56 GMT -8
Wow! Quick reply. Thanks. I noticed that we tapped into two poles on a related discussion (emphasis mine): Josh Robin There's an old thread on the tension between/ paradox of christian duty and voluntary giving that I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on. Marcus visited ACF and stirred things up the other year (in a good way! ) with a discussion on "service, giving, and social responsibility" (something like that), which gave rise to an interesting online discussion. I'd love to hear your input on it. Chris, too, since it's before you guys time. Cheers. See you soon! Service, Giving, and Social Responsibility |
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Post by Margot on Nov 2, 2008 18:20:17 GMT -8
Josh, I wasn't sure what you meant here. Despite? I'm confused.
With unemployment growing, hundreds of thousands of uninsured children and, widespread hunger on the increase? Uh, I'd kinda say we're looking at it.
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Post by Josh on Nov 2, 2008 19:31:30 GMT -8
I probably should have said, "regardless of our present political situation". In other words, no matter what our government is doing (good or bad), we still have a job to do.
Yup.
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Post by robin on Nov 4, 2008 13:54:34 GMT -8
I wrote:
Josh Wrote:
I will look at it, but quickly want to remind everyone of What Paul said to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 24, 2009 14:03:19 GMT -8
I have a fun thought. The middle class in the developed world is the greatest environmental poluter in History. The enivronmental impact of extremely poor urban people is relatively minimal. Think a squatter in Rangoon. The environmental footprint of the individual rich person is HUGE, but there are so few of them that it doesn't cause catastrophic damage. However, the environmental impact of hundreds of millions of people with modest means, families that drive multiple vehicles with internal combustion engines, that live in large single family houses a good distance from their place of employement. That consume, comsume, and consume more. That is a recipe for environmental disaster. I am the first to admit that I fall into the category of a middle class consumer, but if you think about it. WE ARE THE ENEMY!
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) and who should spread it to whom.
