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Post by Josh on Apr 23, 2009 21:26:49 GMT -8
Perhaps some of the newbies would be interested in chiming in here?
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 15:32:28 GMT -8
Actual denominations I have attended for at least a month:
United Methodist Church (This is the denomination that I grew up in. I am still officially a member of the UMC, though this will likely change once I graduate and get a real job). I have attended the UMC consistently all my life except for the past four years. I still go when I'm home because my parents want me to still attend this church. So, I'm still technically United Methodist, although that's not really where my heart is. Please do not get me wrong, there are some very good United Methodist churches out there that teach the truth. However, I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the theologically liberal attitude that is present within the denomination. I have great respect for John Wesley, but much of the UMC is no longer teaching what he taught.
Vineyard - I have been regularly attending Vineyard churches for the past four years. I find myself in agreement with what I have seen in the four Vineyard's that I have been to.
Other religious influences on my life that have not been by particular denominations:
Youth For Christ -- Campus Life -- When I was in high school I attended a Bible study that met after school, and I attended a youth conference that Youth For Christ put on my senior year of high school. I got a lot out of it....this was really the first time I had been exposed to anything besides the church that I grew up in.
Campus Crusade For Christ - In college I was a part of a Bible study that became affiliated with Campus Crusade. I also attended several events that were put on by them -- a retreat, Christmas Conference twice, Big Break (a spring break trip) three times. It was on these trips that I was challenged to and learned to rely on God.
Various Christian books that I have read
Also, I have to say that I have been influenced by my Roman Catholic friends from college. I attended some of their church services with them, and I learned from them.
Mennonites -- both sides of my family come from Mennonite backgrounds. My grandfather on my mom's side grew up in a Mennonite church. Therefore, some of these beliefs have been passed down in my family -- such as a strong belief that people should know what they are doing when they are being baptized -- that they need to make their own decision. (This goes against the idea of infant baptism).
I'm fairly non-denominational in my thinking. I believe that as long as a person holds to the essentials of the Christian faith, I do not think that denominations should really be a big deal.
(In my view, the essentials of the Christian faith include the following:
- belief in the Trinity
- belief in the deity of Jesus
- belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus
- belief in Jesus' second coming
- belief that salvation is by grace through faith
- belief in the blood atonement...that Jesus' death was a sacrifice
- belief that Jesus is the only way
- belief in the reality of sin
etc.)
I specify this because I actually know quite a few people who claim to be Christian who deny all of the above. These would be known as theologically liberal "Christians."
Essentially, what I'm saying is as long as the gospel that is in the Bible is the one that is being preached, and the truth of who Jesus is is being proclaimed -- that it is to Him that a particular church points to, I do not care about denominations. The important thing to me is that Jesus Christ is being glorified. If a ministry doesn't point to Jesus, and instead points to something else, then it is not preaching the biblical gospel, and I would have just as big a problem with it as I would with theologically liberal churches that would deny the things that I specifically listed.
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2009 18:39:36 GMT -8
It is crazy how much one church differs from another on essential doctrines amongst some of the mainline denominations, isn't it? But, those denominations started their drift toward liberalism 100 years ago, and it's good to know that the basics of the gospel are holding their ground and perhaps even making a comeback in certain denominations (I don't know to what degree that's true in Methodist circles) A John MacArthur lovin' Vineyard attender. Very cool  I can tell you're just right for these forums. Amen. Hey, I'd love your input on our thread where we've discussed "essential christian doctrines". check it out when you get a chance: aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=essential&action=display&thread=1151Thanks for sharing some more of your story with us! |
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 19:17:41 GMT -8
I do know that there is something called the Confessing Movement within the UMC. My sister went to college in Indiana and it was from her that I heard about this movement. She said that it was a growing movement in Indiana. I've never heard it mentioned at my school. The Confessing Movement is trying to get the United Methodist Church back to its roots -- back to what John Wesley taught. I don't know how big the confessing movement is, or in what parts of the country it exists in. I once stumbled across a United Methodist online forum in which some of the posters were talking about the movement. Several of them said that they hoped that the movement would die, and that people needed to wake up into modern times. Another person was defending the movement. Ultimately, I think a lot of mainline denominations are going to have to split again across the conservative/liberal theology line. I don't see how denominations could stay together when they are being pulled in two completely opposite directions. I'll tell you what, though, the school I attend is actually a United Methodist seminary. I'm getting a master's degree in counseling. I've had to take some theology and Bible classes, though, as part of my degree. I've been told I have bad theology because I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. Among United Methodist seminaries, this one is considered to be moderate. We've had professors here who have taught their students that Jesus never even existed. These are people who are teaching people to become pastors!!! I have heard UMC bishops deny that Jesus is the only way and also promote things like eastern spirituality and shamanism. This of course does not mean that everyone who goes here believes everything that the professors and spiritual leaders say. The unfortunate thing is that far too many of them do take a scholar at their word. Yep, and proud of it  Thank you. I will gladly check out the discussion on essential Christian doctrine. |
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 19:40:18 GMT -8
Hey...I just remembered something -- you guys are all from Oregon, right? An online friend informed me of a Vineyard in Oregon that has completely gone off the deep end, and I really think needs to be kicked out of Vineyard. At least I would like to see it kicked out. I hope that most Vineyard's in Oregon are not like the one my friend sent me the link to. If so, this would give a very twisted view of Vineyard. I just thought I'd put that out there because I know there are some odd views that some people have regarding the Vineyard due to certain churches that have already been kicked out. It seems to me like at least one more should be. Yes, Vineyard will kick churches out of the association if they do not adhere to the Vineyard statement of faith. |
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2009 19:54:32 GMT -8
Yes, many of us live near the Portland, Oregon area.
That's interesting. I don't know much about the Portland Vineyard but do know some folks who attended there for a while.
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 26, 2009 20:13:22 GMT -8
Yes, many of us live near the Portland, Oregon area. That's interesting. I don't know much about the Portland Vineyard but do know some folks who attended there for a while. It wasn't the Portland Vineyard. Let me go look up to see the name of the one that's gone off the deep end. Maybe you can get someone you know who goes to the Portland one to investigate it and bring up any concerns to the regional director....which would mean this church would go before Vineyard's board...and then maybe they could be kicked out??!!! That would be wonderful. here's the website my friend found: www.elijahlist.com/The people who run that website go to a Vineyard that needs to be kicked out. This website and the church that runs it support false prophets and prophecies and stuff that other Vineyard's have been kicked out for doing. And yes, I'm being completely serious. I would like this church to be kicked out of Vineyard!!! here's the church's website. www.vcfalbany.org/ |
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Post by sarah on Apr 27, 2009 15:28:27 GMT -8
Hmm,
That is interesting. I have been to the Albany vineyard, but it has been probably about 7 years or so now. I also know a lot of folks who regularly access the elijahlist for conference information and resources. I haven't asked any of them about recent activity though, so it is certainly possible it has diverged from it's original self. What specifically where your friend's concerns?
My experience personally with all of this is that you have to trust in the Holy Spirit with all of "ultra charismatic" leaning groups to help discern between what is him and what is men, or worse. I have found a lot of value, but have also let a lot pass.
As a curiosity, what would you define as false prophecy?
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on Apr 27, 2009 16:39:32 GMT -8
Hmm, That is interesting. I have been to the Albany vineyard, but it has been probably about 7 years or so now. I also know a lot of folks who regularly access the elijahlist for conference information and resources. I haven't asked any of them about recent activity though, so it is certainly possible it has diverged from it's original self. What specifically where your friend's concerns? My experience personally with all of this is that you have to trust in the Holy Spirit with all of "ultra charismatic" leaning groups to help discern between what is him and what is men, or worse. I have found a lot of value, but have also let a lot pass. As a curiosity, what would you define as false prophecy? I didn't even know anything about the people featured on the Elijah List or any of the practices. The whole reason that it came up was because when I told someone I was going to Vineyard churches, someone sent me all these apologetic sites against the Vineyard. When I read the sites, I was completely confused because what was described on those sites was nothing like the Vineyard's that I've been to. I honestly thought someone had made it all up. Then I was reading a chapter from one of my textbooks for a theology class I was taking. The author of the chapter made a comment about Vineyard being weird and gave some examples. Again, I was completely confused and thought that the person did not know what they were talking about. Then I came across a site that explained some of this stuff. I had never heard of the Toronto "blessing" or the things that happened with that. I had never heard of the TACF. I read about it on a website by a person who could be trusted. I also learned that the TACF had been kicked out of Vineyard, as had several other churches. Unfortunately most of the apologetic sites that say something against Vineyard are responding to TACF churches, and write as if TACF is the model that all Vineyard's should be judged against. They also often fail to mention that TACF was kicked out of Vineyard. I have gone to the Elijah List website and have my own opinion. I cannot speak for my friend, though I would guess that she would have a similar view to me. Now please note that I do not regularly visit the website. I only visit it when I have a reason to (such as to look up names of authors that I want to avoid). I mention this only to say that I do not intimately know what all is being taught on the Elijah List. From the blurbs that I have read, it seems to me that a lot of the people featured on it are into excesses. Some of it has very little to do with Jesus Christ or the gospel. Rather, much of it seems to be about spiritual manifestations, angels, and the like. Many of the people on the list speak flat out false prophecies. I have no patience for this sort of thing. I think that a lot of Christians are being deceived and are being led astray by the featured people on the list. I have seen video clips from youtube of some of the more popular featured persons (Patricia King, James Goll, Bob Jones, Dutch Sheets, Kim Clement, Todd Bentley (now removed from the list), Stacey Campbell, and the like). Quite frankly, I would not be able to tolerate listening to them for long. What I heard them preaching is not the gospel that is in the Bible. I can't really explain it...it's just very off. I don't see these people pointing people to the Jesus that is in the Bible. I'm more familiar with Todd Bentley than with any of the others, and that is because of the "revival" that happened last year. I was involved in several online debates with other people on Christian forums. I researched Todd Bentley and what he actually taught so that I would be in a position to truly know what I was talking about when I opposed his teachings. In my research, I also came across videos involving the above mentioned people as well. When considering the main message of people like Todd Bentley, they seem to be teaching on spiritual encounters, angels, and spiritual manifestations rather than on Jesus Christ. Do they mention the name Jesus? Sure. However, they do not really teach on Him. They are just using Him as a label. Anyone who invokes angels and practically gets people to worship them is off. The only way I know how to describe what I heard from these individuals is to say that what they were preaching had the appearance of being Christian (they use Christian terms and Christian phrases and may even occasionally quote from the Bible), but it is actually unsound teaching. It is not Scriptural. In fact, I believe that this type of stuff is leading people away from God rather than towards Him. By the way, Bob Jones, who has been hailed as a great prophet by the people on the Elijah List was kicked out of Vineyard for heresy and because he had women come into his office and undress in front of him. He also is really big into angels. Todd Bentley looked up to this man. I've just been aware of Elijah List the past couple of years, so I'm not sure what it was like before that. Maybe it started off on a good foot, but then started featuring all these false, unsound teachers? Who knows. I do want to be clear -- I do believe in all of the biblical spiritual gifts. Otherwise I would not be happy in a Vineyard church. The Vineyard's that I know (and I have now been to four of them -- two of them I attend fairly regularly) do not make a big deal about spiritual gifts. Yes, the churches definitely believe in them, but they are not the main focus. It is Jesus and the gospel that is. These Vineyard's view spiritual gifts in the same way that Paul did. Because of my research on Todd Bentley and those like him, including the TACF, I am also very well aware that churches that believe in spiritual gifts need to be really careful. There is a danger that the gifts themselves can take the place of Jesus and the gospel. If that happens, then all sorts of false things are going to be brought into the church. I think that discernment is crucial. As I have heard many times, the Holy Spirit always points people back to Jesus and to what He did for us. Consequently, the content of a pastor or speaker's message should be the same. The message or ministry should ultimately glorify God and make much of Him. The message should not center on the person speaking or various spiritual encounters the person has had. If the person truly is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then what they say should be in line with Scripture. It should not contradict the Bible. In order to test what someone is saying against the Bible, the person has to be familiar with the Bible. What I find in the people on the Elijah List is that they point people to themselves, glorify themselves, talk about angels, talk about various manifestations that often are not even biblical, and often contradict Scripture. I think that Colossians 2:16-19 is a good description of what these individuals do. I would define as a false prophecy any of the following: -- a prophecy given that does not come true -- a prophecy that contains content that directly contradicts Scripture and sound doctrine I also believe that if someone really has the Holy Spirit, and if they really have the gift of prophecy, then when they speak or give a sermon, what they say should be in accord with Scripture. They would not be telling people to rely on angels or to get God to send angels of finance or appeal to people's sinful nature. It is the same Spirit who inspired Scripture who also gives people spiritual gifts. I also believe that Satan and his demons can imitate the real spiritual gifts...and can often appear to be the real gift. That is why I consider it extremely dangerous for people to follow someone just because they can heal people, or just because they can prophecy, or just because of another spiritual gift. The New Testament contains many warnings about how, in the end times, there will be many false prophets and teachers. Also, there will be counterfeit signs and wonders and that many be led astray by them. The Anti-Christ's false prophet will even be able to call fire down from heaven. That's why I think it is important to look at the actual teachings of a person to see whether or not what they say is consistent with Scripture. |
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Post by rlcastle333 on Jun 5, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -8
It looks like so many of you are from Oregon...especially the Portland area. I'm a member of the Church of Christ, but NOT in agreement with those who say, "If you don't belong to the Church of Christ, then you're going to Hell." I believe that only God has that authority, and not man (fortunately, there are more congregations who disagree with "old school CoC"). Anyway, I went to college at Columbia Christian College (later known as Cascade College) in Portland. Try not to judge me too harshly...  |
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Post by Josh on Jun 5, 2009 20:01:41 GMT -8
Don't worry. I grew up in a denomination where some thought pretty much the same thing.
We're pretty good around here at not throwing out babies with bathwater... even if they are getting ready to retire ;D
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Post by robin on Jun 5, 2009 20:07:26 GMT -8
It looks like so many of you are from Oregon...especially the Portland area. I'm a member of the Church of Christ, but NOT in agreement with those who say, "If you don't belong to the Church of Christ, then you're going to Hell." I believe that only God has that authority, and not man (fortunately, there are more congregations who disagree with "old school CoC"). Anyway, I went to college at Columbia Christian College (later known as Cascade College) in Portland. Try not to judge me too harshly... Did you know that Cascade is closing down? It's sad, but fortunately a Christian school located next to the campus is buying the property and will use it to house the high schoolers. |
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matty
Advanced Member
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Post by matty on Jun 6, 2009 5:02:08 GMT -8
Well i am a lifelong Anglican. But i believe most branches of christianity could all join together to form one branch. We don't have that different beliefs
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Post by rlcastle333 on Jun 6, 2009 18:13:34 GMT -8
"Did you know that Cascade is closing down? It's sad, but fortunately a Christian school located next to the campus is buying the property and will use it to house the high schoolers."
Yes, I knew about Cascade closing. As a member of the Alumni Association, I would get newsletters. When I found out that this past year was to be the last year it was like having my heart ripped out. I made so many friends there, and still keep in touch with as many as possible...even after 28 years.
I'm glad to hear that Columbia High School is going to be using the campus. The high school existed before the college did. In fact, Columbia started out as a Christian elementary school. The junior high and high school were added later. In the 1950's (I think) Columbia Christian College was established as a 2-year college and became a 4-year college in the late '60's or early '70's. It was a wonderful place to go, and I'll always cherish my time there. Some of my favorite memories, though, are from volleyball matches and basketball games vs. Multnomah School of the Bible. They were are arch rivals in competition, but our best friends any other time.
But I get away from the main purpose of the thread. I'll try to do better next time.
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Post by Midnight Romance on Jun 6, 2009 21:29:31 GMT -8
I went to . . . . .
Lutheran Church - First 8 years of my life.
Non-denominational Church - 8 years old until now. I'm looking for a new church now. It says it's non-denominational, but it's actually baptist.
Seventh Day Adventist Church - (It's on Saturday so I could attend it while going to my non-denominational church) I attended this church for two years.
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Post by Josh on Jun 7, 2009 18:48:12 GMT -8
I always think it's cool to hear new folk's backgrounds. We've got a really diverse mix here and that's awesome!
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Post by kraigeriginal on Jun 9, 2009 13:42:13 GMT -8
I sort of got caught up on here. But I didn't read all of it. I think it's neat that so many of you have such varying backgrounds.
Catholic (St. Vincent's in Salem, 12 years)
Foursquare (New Hope in Salem, 3 years)
Church of God (Oak Park in Salem, 4 years)
Bedside Baptist (college, on an off for 4 years while I attended Warner Pacific)
I actually frequented Mt. Scott Church of God and Imago Dei while I was in college, but not as often as I should have.
I have gone to Winding Road for a little over a year.
I also go to Mosaic Portland (since October, started by getting involved in a home group).
I currently am the senior pastor of the church of Kraig. We have zero members, thank God.
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I can tell you're just right for these forums. 
