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Post by michelle on Apr 14, 2010 12:43:54 GMT -8
Mo, I've been meaning to say thank you for sharing. I have thoughts fermenting, but am very short on time for the next couple of weeks. BTW, I took calculus, but am totally lost on the reference to the x & y axis. I guess I have to dig really deep into my memories about that!!
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Post by Josh on Apr 14, 2010 18:31:33 GMT -8
bump (this thread got buried when I moved another one) Josh, what does it mean when we see "bump"? If a thread is transferred from one sub-category to another, even if it is old, it displaces whatever thread is the most current. I don't like that, so I post a reply on the most current thread to keep it on the top of the list and viewable from the main page. In other words, I "bump" it to the top again.
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Post by michelle on Apr 14, 2010 20:06:19 GMT -8
Josh, what does it mean when we see "bump"? If a thread is transferred from one sub-category to another, even if it is old, it displaces whatever thread is the most current. I don't like that, so I post a reply on the most current thread to keep it on the top of the list and viewable from the main page. In other words, I "bump" it to the top again. Got it. I thought it was when someone says something inappropriate I thought you "bumped" it off the forum.
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Post by Josh on Apr 15, 2010 8:04:17 GMT -8
Certainly, yes. The thing is: I wanted relation with God badly. I didn't want to become an atheist at all. It’s not like I suddenly decided to break the family ties with my creator. I've tried. Even when I was already an atheist I prayed honestly (last time was after I had seen Passion of the Christ a couple of years ago). The problem was/is rather that I couldn't/ can't feel God’s presence and his attempts to communicate with me. Let me explain: Due to my work I’m getting more and more aware of the fact of social constructivism (a sociological metatheory, too large to explain with a few words) and I’m raising more and more awareness for the subjectivity of everything. I’m recognizing the fact that many people claim to understand God’s way of communication and I’m no one to say that they are imagining stuff. However, I’ve never seen a slight hint of God’s communication with me. When I was a Christian, I interpreted his silence as his way of communication. I interpreted things that happened to me as his answer to my prayers, sometimes positive, sometimes negative. Then I figured that there was actually no basis for my interpretations. There was no systematic logic behind his supposed answers so that I could check where my interpretation affirmed and where not. No trial and error, no nothing. On the contrary, everything was random. Sometimes something I prayed for would happen, sometimes the same thing would not happen. I figured that this could be God’s answer or simply my imagination and that there was no way for me to differentiate between the two. Sometimes or pretty much always, situations allow different, often contradicting interpretations so what was I supposed to learn about God’s will? The Bible wouldn’t help much either because, as the variety of Christian beliefs proves, you can get whatever you want out of the book. If you are a pacifist, you can cite the Sermon on the Mount, if you believe violence is an acceptable means to an end, you can point at God’s numerous homicides. And so on. The bottom line is this: Whether God does or does not try to communicate with me, he never did it in a way I could identify. Maybe I’m too stupid, or lacking the religious sense or whatever, but I can’t hear him. I can’t see him. I can’t feel him etc. I’ve even told him that and asked him to communicate in a way I can understand. So I think we can turn your question around: I’ve reached out my arms for years without him responding. At some point I accepted his wish and now I’m standing at arms length from him. If he wants to be a part of my life he can pick me up any time. If he doesn’t that’s fine too. As I've said elsewhere, I think you've got a point here. I don't think it's irrational of you to expect God to "show up" in a way you can understand. Jesus seemed to say that He would take the initiative in communication. Luke 15 3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'I also understand your doubts about what is or what isn't genuine communication from God. I do think that God communicates to you more than you know, but I don't hold it against you to want some communication that is much more obvious. I don't think it needs to be an audible voice to be obvious, though. At least it wasn't for me.
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Post by Josh on Apr 15, 2010 8:08:26 GMT -8
Mo, I think you're creating false dichotomies here. God's mercy doesn't contradict his judgment, nor does His anger contradict His love. This is even true (in a good way) of humans!
For instance, God hates sin and He hates the part of us that is given over to it, yet He loves us all for the part of us that still reflects His image- our real, intended selves.
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Post by moritz on Apr 15, 2010 11:23:29 GMT -8
God hates sin and He hates the part of us that is given over to it, yet He loves us all for the part of us that still reflects His image- our real, intended selves. My understanding of love is this: love doesn't hate at all. If God was love, he would not hate, not even sin.
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Post by Josh on Apr 15, 2010 13:01:32 GMT -8
Isn't there anything you have ever done that you hate?
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Post by moritz on Apr 15, 2010 13:13:06 GMT -8
Isn't there anything you have ever done that you hate? Unlike God, I'm not the essence of love. Perhaps that is the misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that one person cannot love somebody and at the same time hate somebody else.
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Post by rbbailey on Apr 15, 2010 14:08:23 GMT -8
I wonder if a broader discussion on what sin actually is might clarify why God can declare that he hates it.
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Post by Josh on Apr 15, 2010 19:47:54 GMT -8
Isn't there anything you have ever done that you hate? Unlike God, I'm not the essence of love. Perhaps that is the misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that one person cannot love somebody and at the same time hate somebody else. I'm not talking about loving one person and hating someone else. The fact of the matter is that God loves everyone, but hates what sin has done to them; hates the sinful part of us. I see no contradiction. And, Mo, you didn't answer my question directly. Have you ever hated something you've done, for good reason?
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