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Post by Josh on Jul 30, 2008 15:30:38 GMT -8
Mo, elsewhere implied that you thought that "free will" was a concept that modern Christians have latched onto to escape certain problems with God's omnipotence and the existence of suffering. You also wondered if there was any biblical basis for the idea of free will.
The bible has many passages that teach or imply free will and emphasis the reality of human choice.
I'll provide just a sampling of all kinds of passages that do that here.
On the other side of the coin, the bible also, of course, has many verses about "predestination". I could also provide a sample list of those, if interested.
Most interesting, however, are verses or passages which discuss both sides of the paradox in the same breath. I think perhaps somewhere around here I've high-lighted some of those.
Apparently the ancient Hebrews and, I believe, the Jews on up into even the 1st Century did not view free choice and predestination as mutually exclusive as some Greek thinkers and later philosophers did.
A sample of verses stressing the reality of free will/ choice:
Joshua 24:14-15
14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Isaiah 55:3
Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
Luke 10:41-42
41"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
Acts 2:21
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
John 7:17
17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Heb 4:11
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb. 6:10-12
10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Rev. 22:17
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Hebrews 11:25 About Moses:
25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.
There's also a chapter in the book of Ezekiel which goes into great detail about God's individual response to an individual's free will choices:
Ezekiel 18
And then, of course, there's the book of Job, which has as it's main theme the very question of free will choice.
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Post by Josh on Jul 30, 2008 15:32:21 GMT -8
This isn't meant to bump out your other thread on free will. That's a good one I'd like to at least say some brief things on, but I just wanted to lay a little background info here.
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Post by Josh on Jul 30, 2008 17:23:12 GMT -8
Here's another good-un:
Deuteronomy 30:19-20a
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
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Post by Josh on Aug 18, 2008 8:59:33 GMT -8
Mo, here's another passage that might help you in your skepticism that one of the central points of the existence of the entire cosmos is that we might have a real choice in pursuing a relationship with God. I'm going to include the entire passage for it's full effect, but I'll bold the section that really hits this home:
Acts 17:16-34
16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
Note too the wonderful interplay between the things God has determined and His intent that we might, perhaps, choose to reach out for him.
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Post by moritz on Aug 19, 2008 1:05:01 GMT -8
Hey, I totally missed that thread. That's because I mainly focus on my bookmarked threads. So, if I get all this right the Bible sometimes mentions choice but never explicitly speaks of free will, is that correct? Choice doesn't equal free will. That's an error of category. Furthermore I'd like you to consider, that IF free will really had that status, IF free will was that important, IF it was the essence of God's love and the answer to such important issues as suffering and evil, THEN I would expect the Bible to mention free will explicitly in the same frequence as it mentions love. The fact that the Bible apparently doesn't mention free will explicitly at least once clearly indicates the misconception you guys have about it. PS: Your statement... Mo, here's another passage that might help you in your skepticism that one of the central points of the existence of the entire cosmos is that we might have (...) ... stinks to high heavens, if you allow me that wordgame. Again it exposes the full amount of Christian/ human arrogance. I will never understand how people can think the existence of the entire universe has ANYTHING to do with us...
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Post by Josh on Aug 19, 2008 9:39:05 GMT -8
I do see every reference to human love as reference to free will.
We're using a technical philosophical concept when we say "free will"- the normal words are "choice" and "love".
BTW, might I remind you that I'm an advocate for predestination and free existing simultaneously and therefore paradoxically.
And, imo, this is the consistent position of Scripture as well. In fact, there are numerous verses that posit both in the same breath.
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Post by Josh on Aug 19, 2008 9:55:14 GMT -8
Perhaps you can't because you've already declared that you won't.
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Post by moritz on Aug 19, 2008 14:51:34 GMT -8
I do see every reference to human love as reference to free will. We're using a technical philosophical concept when we say "free will"- the normal words are "choice" and "love". Very clever. But your avoiding my point. As far as I can see, there is no discours in the bible about the importance of free will. It appears all the time on this board yet the Bible doesn't metion it even once. If free will was only half as important to the authors of the Bible as it is for you, then the Bible would dedicate EXPLICIT passages to that topic. No name games. Yet, the best you can provide are some quotes referring to choice. But choice doesn't equal free will. No way. Neither does love. I won't let you get away with this. BTW, might I remind you that I'm an advocate for predestination and free existing simultaneously and therefore paradoxically. And, imo, this is the consistent position of Scripture as well. In fact, there are numerous verses that posit both in the same breath. This is just another stretch of yours so you can get around the contradictions of the Bible. There are different kinds of paradoxes. You can want some ice cream (because you like ice cream) and at the same not want ice cream (because you are worried about your shape). Those are paradox feelings that can coexist. But what you CAN'T do is HAVE an icecream and at the same time have NO icecream. A decision can't be free and at the same time determined. That's impossible*. Don't repeat it over and over again so shamelessly I think your argumentation clearly reached its logical end. The fact that you are holding on to this obviously lost battle is incomprehensible to me. Or maybe it isn't. You have a lot to lose. *If you want to tell me now that it MIGHT be possible in the world of quantum physics, I'll just remind you that all your evidences pro God MIGHT look quite differently in the world of quantum physics too. If we want to enter the world of quantum physics, we can forget all we know.
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Post by moritz on Aug 19, 2008 14:54:30 GMT -8
Perhaps you can't because you've already declared that you won't. Do you care about acarians? Are you interested in their worries?
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Post by Josh on Dec 12, 2008 12:40:04 GMT -8
So, to Chris and Mo (my two "calminian detractors"- unlikely bedfellows though you may be):
Techincally, it's only a contradiction if I say:
a) Free will exists
and
b) Free will does not exist
OR
a) Everything is predestined
and
b) Nothing is predestined
But I'm saying that both
a) Truly Free Will
and
b) True Determinism
might co-exist.
You're right- I would have to appeal to something like quantam physics or dimensional theory to make this assertion. And I could never prove it. But what I am saying is that my reason for assuming that such a paradox does exist and is ultimately (from God's angle) explanable is twofold:
1) I think the Bible teaches it, and I accept the Bible as an authority for other reasons
and
2) I think that philosophical, moral, and practical reflection together demand that they both be true.
Also:
As I've said before, if I were God I would care about everything because I would be omniscient and omnipresent and loving. If acarians had worries to care about, of course I would if I had unlimited time, ability, and compassion.
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steve
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 93
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Post by steve on Dec 13, 2008 14:57:40 GMT -8
Hello Moritz. Long time no chat. I'd like to respond to something you said earlier in this dialogue. I hope I don't derail your guy's discussion. You said, ".. stinks to high heavens, if you allow me that wordgame. Again it exposes the full amount of Christian/ human arrogance. I will never understand how people can think the existence of the entire universe has ANYTHING to do with us... " Why does that necessarily have to be arrogance? I remember a chat of ours walking near the Turm Palast and I made some statement about the nature of God and you made the same comment then. You called it arrogance to think that I can make any sort of definitive statement about the divine. You ought to be a bit slower to use that term. It could really be a number of different things. It could be, for example, an active imagination, lunacy, foolishness, naivity, blind faith, or thought out and planned faith. At any rate, when you tell me I can't make a definitive statement about God, then you are doing just that. You are saying that He is completely unknowable. Now how is it that you happen to know that? And now a few words about dimensional math. In mathematics, it is possible to have two seperate linear dimensions running parallel on the same 2D plane. As you all know, parallel lines never touch. They can both be on the same dimension and infinitely close without touching. This is always how I have imagined the coexistence of free, creative, beings operating from their own will, and yet nonetheless being intertwined in some degree of destiny. (I'm not saying I necessarily believe in fate at all, but if I did, that is how I would imagine it.) CS Lewis said that God existence both on and outside of the dimensions of time which we occupy and has, quite logically, access to every point on that timeline simultaneously. He sees what will happen. But seeing and causing are two different pairs of shoes. I'm not sure if I'm talking about the same things as you guys, but I guess I'll post this anyway.
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Post by moritz on Dec 19, 2008 8:14:10 GMT -8
Steve! Good to hear from you. I hope you're doing well! You said, ".. stinks to high heavens, if you allow me that wordgame. Again it exposes the full amount of Christian/ human arrogance. I will never understand how people can think the existence of the entire universe has ANYTHING to do with us... " Why does that necessarily have to be arrogance? I remember a chat of ours walking near the Turm Palast and I made some statement about the nature of God and you made the same comment then. You called it arrogance to think that I can make any sort of definitive statement about the divine. You ought to be a bit slower to use that term. It could really be a number of different things. It could be, for example, an active imagination, lunacy, foolishness, naivity, blind faith, or thought out and planned faith. I remember the chat. But I can't remember if I called you arrogant for making a definite statement about God. However, of course you are right that other things like naivity could be involved too when somebody thinks that the entire universe is spinning around us. But that doesn't change the fact taht arrogance is implicit. Our imagination certainly isn't able to fathom how big the universe is and how little we know about it. But we do know it's gigantic. Yet we think ourselves so important that the entire universe is built around us. I've held the view of this being human arrogance long before I heard the name of Professor Dawkins for the first time, but he nails it: "Why should a divine being, with creation and eternity on his mind, care a fig for petty human malefactions? We humans give ourselves such airs, even aggrandizing our poky little 'sins' to the level of cosmic significance!" At any rate, when you tell me I can't make a definitive statement about God, then you are doing just that. You are saying that He is completely unknowable. Now how is it that you happen to know that? Uhm, I think I see a little twist here. Of course God is knowable, provided he chooses to reveal himself. As long as he doesn't, what can we know about him in the true sense of the word? That's a big difference. And now a few words about dimensional math. In mathematics, it is possible to have two seperate linear dimensions running parallel on the same 2D plane. As you all know, parallel lines never touch. They can both be on the same dimension and infinitely close without touching. This is always how I have imagined the coexistence of free, creative, beings operating from their own will, and yet nonetheless being intertwined in some degree of destiny. Thank you for the example, Steve. Here is the problem: Parallels can't intertwine.
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Post by christopher on Dec 19, 2008 18:47:56 GMT -8
Mo wrote: I think I like David's version better...and he precedes Dawkins by a couple millenia.... Ps 8:3-53 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, 4 What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor. NKJV
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Post by Josh on Dec 20, 2008 11:27:20 GMT -8
Chris, I think your last post (in response to Mo's comment) makes a good separate thread, so I've started one: Anthropic Arrogance?
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Post by Josh on Dec 20, 2008 12:43:00 GMT -8
Mo: I keep coming back to this in my head. I don't see how you can say this. All of the passages I cited above emphatically imply that the hearer is able to either choose a) to obey, respond, repent or b) to not obey, respond, repent. These passages don't say that the hearer has no free will. They say the hearer can make a real free will decision between two opposites. I think you're reading predestination into these passages when that was not the assumption of the original hearers of these passages. The Jews had a place for both ideas side by side. Oh, and I happened to come across this quote by Oswald Chambers, one of my favorite Christian mystics: The disciple who abides in Jesus is the will of God, and his apparently free choices are God’s fore-ordained decrees. Mysterious? Logically contradictory and absurd? Yes, but a glorious truth to a saint.
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Post by Josh on Nov 25, 2010 13:26:55 GMT -8
Gregory Boyd has an interesting argument on this topic. He notes the almost total absence of any philosophical quandry about free will/ predistination in the bible, concluding that this was not something that kept people in biblical times "up at nights". This, he reasons, indicates that they must have assumed one side as the dominant explanation (free will or predestination) and that when you look at it, they had no developed view of predestination and seem overall from the evidence to have assumed free will. The reason they don't specifically teach free will, but rather seem to assume it, is that they didn't share the philosophical quandry we have inherited from the Hellenistic church fathers.
I agree with this line of reasoning.
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Post by christopher on Nov 25, 2010 17:44:23 GMT -8
So does that mean you have abandoned your previously held Cal-minian paradox view? ;D
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