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Post by Kirby on Nov 10, 2009 23:14:33 GMT -8
...yet we posess the choice to obey or not. I don't have a problem with the idea of authority, but free will allows me to command myself if I so choose (even if it is not wise nor moral.)
I think, though, this is a little about semantics, because
is in the very same vein as
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Post by robin on Nov 11, 2009 9:11:02 GMT -8
It seems to me that our freedom, and Gods commands go hand in hand. If we did not have freedom, a command would be useless. God would simply program us to do as He wishes. The fact that evil exists is evidence that we have freedom. Of course there is no reason to reject the thought that God does demand morality. We can chose to follow Christ and obey His moral standards that are universally recognized, or we may chose to worship ourselves and our selfish desires, allowing for our evil nature rule over us. Consider what God said to Cain. Genesis 4:6-76 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." I feel that our views on freedom are pretty close to each other , and in fact it probably is just semantics.
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 9:57:57 GMT -8
Wow. Quite a lot of action here.
I'll start with the first response after my last post.
kirbstomp:
I just realized that we might not be thinking of the same thing when using the term Moral Law. I go along with CS Lewis in seeing the absolute law of morality as pertaining not to a set of rules (open to the charge that different cultures practice morality differently) but as referring to a set of Absolute values that are nearly universal.
For instance, all cultures* hold Bravery as a virtue. However, their particular rules about how bravery is demonstrated can differ tremendously.
All cultures value life and have definitions for murder. Though their definitions vary, their value on life is a common, absolute value.
In the appendix to his book The Abolition of Man, Lewis goes through several of these absolute values, sampling the beliefs of major world cultures through history. Some of the other values he highlights are:
The Laws of General and Special Beneficence Duties to Parents, Elders, and Ancestors Duties to Children and Posterity The Law of Justice Laws of Good Faith and Veracity The Law of Mercy The Law of Magnanimity
In other words, all cultures form relative, subjective rules around Universal, Absolute values. It is these Absolute values that I'm referring to as the "Moral Law".
*all cultures means virtually all cultures. Lewis allows for a few anomolies, or bad eggs, as he calls them. Think of the Nazis, the Carthaginians, or the Waodoni.
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 10:05:05 GMT -8
Robin, I think we agree. As Kirbstomp pointed out:
And I agree that God does command us to obey the Moral Law. My point was that the word "command" can imply that we should obey simply because He arbitrarily commanded something. However, His command is not arbitrary, it is merely a voicing of what is already built in down deep into the universe, into our own hearts, and, as you said, is a reflection of His own image.
As a side-note, however, some of the laws in the Bible are arbitary. There are times when God has asked his people to do things that have nothing to do with the Moral Law- such as wearing tassles on your garments, eating kosher, etc..
In those cases, the reason for obeying wasn't to avoid offending the Moral Law. It was simply obedience to God who knows best. God had a specific plan for His more arbitary laws.
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Post by robin on Nov 11, 2009 10:51:52 GMT -8
Well said. Since we seem to agree, I don't know what to say next. Actually I'm reading CS Lewis' "The Grand Miracle and other essay's on theology and ethics from God on the Docks", so I'm certain that as I read on further it will spur me on to continue this conversation with new thought's. For now I have none. Robin
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 11:52:19 GMT -8
BTW, the reason I reacted the way I did to your use of the word "command" was because it sounded like the Divine Command Theory, with with I strongly disagree. Here's a definition of the Divine Command Theory: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory
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Post by robin on Nov 11, 2009 18:50:57 GMT -8
That certainly does not represent anything even close to my thoughts on morality. It seems so problematic that I can't imagine any thoughtful person holding such a view. Perhaps a Calvinist could believe such as theory.
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Post by Josh on Nov 11, 2009 19:16:42 GMT -8
Yeah, it's a strange position to hold.
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