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Post by Josh on Aug 27, 2010 10:37:43 GMT -8
So, it's been a long time since this thread was touched and I haven't reviewed it, but a question came to my mind today.
Robin, and any others who are sympathetic to "open theism": do you accept or reject the relativity of time?
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Post by robin on Aug 30, 2010 12:34:15 GMT -8
As I have stated before, its my belief that the only thing that truly exists is the present. We have knowledge of the past, but it is unchangeable, and the future is unknowable. All we know about the future are some potential outcomes. However, only God knows every potential out come, but even he has been surprised at the outcomes on occasions.
Jer. 3:6-7 "Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7"And I thought, ‘After she has done all these things, she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it,"
The way I see it, time only exists in our mind, and is a tool we use to measure progress. Time cannot exist independent from space.
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Post by Josh on Aug 31, 2010 16:07:19 GMT -8
So, in other words, you reject Einstein's theories of relativity?
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Post by robin on Sept 1, 2010 12:14:39 GMT -8
I don't reject it as a theory, but I reject it as a scientific fact. I don't think science will ever be able to prove conclusively whether Einstein's theory is correct or not. As popular as the theory may be the debate rages on, both scientifically and philosophically.
I also must say that I am not sure that I like the way the question was asked. You and I both know that for me to say that I disagree with Einstein will only make me look silly. I would never in a million years claim to be more intelligent on the subject that Einstein. But the fact is that there continues to be a debate on the subject among people who are vastly more intelligent than myself. I wont even pretend to understand all the complexities that are involved in these debates, so I will stick with what I am able to do, and that is look at the subject from a philosophical stand point.
You and I have had long discussions on the subject and you know my position, so I'm not sure why you pressed for a yes or no answer? The fact is I think there are serious philosophical problems with Einstein's theory, and I'll leave it at that.
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Post by christopher on Sept 1, 2010 18:29:46 GMT -8
So, I'm sitting here wondering how the relativity of time is supposed to affect the open theism view? How "relative" does the theory say time is?
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Post by Josh on Sept 1, 2010 20:27:15 GMT -8
Well, I've been thinking about an argument contra open theism that relies on the theory of relativity, which I don't think we've disucssed (I might be wrong). But I was just trying to figure out if you were just going to say you don't accept the premise of relativity, rendering the argument moot.
My understanding of the current state of the theory of relativity in the scientific community is that it is almost universally accepted as the best current explanation for the physics of the universe and it is continually being tested and proven increasingly accurate (the error bar has grown considerably smaller since Einstein's day) to the point that some even say it's more concrete a theory than the theory of gravity.
I don't have a lot of time right now so I am teasing this out a bit as I have a moment here and there.
robin wrote:
Sorry, Robin, I've talked about this subject so many times with a variety of people that I forget what parts of the discussion I've had with who, so I genuinely couldn't remember although I assumed from our discussions on the age of the universe that you were probably doubtful about relativity.
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Post by Josh on Sept 1, 2010 20:53:58 GMT -8
Okay- here goes a rough thumbnail scetch of the argument brewing in my mind:
Based on my limited understanding, Einstein's theories of relativity posit that time is relative to location in the universe/ the speed of the subject in question. In effect, there are things in our universe that exist at different times depending on these two variables.
So, the argument would go that if we accept that God is transcendent to the universe and is that being of which no greater being can be imagined and is everywhere at once, then He must, according to the theories of relativity, exist in more than one relative time.
Imagine if Chris was as big as the universe. His right hand, being a universe apart from his left hand, would be in a different time than his left, yet because of his immensity, he would actually be existing in all relative times.
And this metaphor would only strengthen if we now apply it to God, who transcends the universe.
And if God is currently in all these possible times, doesn't that preclude Open Theism?
Also, on another note, what does the Open Theism position posit about time before the creation of the universe? Do you guys know?
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Post by robin on Sept 2, 2010 13:57:32 GMT -8
SO even if Einstein's theory were to be true, would that imply that within our realm of existence there is something beyond our presence? Hopefully I'm being clear, but I fear that I may have stated my question in a confusing manner, so let me restate my question. If we could confirm that time moves at a faster pace elsewhere in the universe, once entering our world would God not have to deal with us based on the reality that we live in?
Like I said some time ago in the thread, I believe that the only thing that truly exists is the present, and time is only a concept, and not a thing.
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