shirley
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 114
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Post by shirley on Feb 19, 2012 17:06:06 GMT -8
Hmmm....Those first three verses you mentioned...it's funny how verses say different things when you have a different perspective. I mean that I know all of the verses you mentioned from being raised in the Local Church. The ones in Rev. make me want to prefer "soul sleep" to a long conscious wait. But anyway, like you said, these are secondary matters and I think divisions arise when secondary matters are made primary. Yes, the first three don't rule out "sleeping in the presence of the Lord". Josh, I feel like my comment about having a different perspective may have been misconstrued. I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment. I meant my perspective now is different from say 15 years ago - when I had numerous passages from the Bible memorized, had recently listened to numerous preachings from Witness Lee, read many of his books, and could cross-reference verses to support local church theology. I have forgotten stuff, but it resurfaces as I read the Bible, think about Christianity, God in my life, and when you ask questions, or when my preconceived notions are challenged.
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Post by Josh on Feb 19, 2012 19:18:50 GMT -8
It's fine either way. I often find myself later disagreement with my own assessments
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Post by asaph on Feb 21, 2015 15:19:22 GMT -8
First, I confess I have not read the six preceding pages. Just the first page. Forgive me if I am repeating things others have stated.
Second, I have belonged to churches with doctrinal statements of belief. I have even composed one myself for a fellowship I was in. That said, we composed, not for us but, for others interested in some of our foundational beliefs, which made us what we were.
Third, "essentials" can be placed in a time frame. What people believed 2000 years ago would not be the same thing people would find essential living at the end of time, or even the times of the end. God reveals when need arises.
Personally, I have believed Christ's return is quite imminent. I do not believe in a secret rapture that takes believers away and relieves them of Jacob's time of trouble. Therefore, I must believe an understanding of Bible prophecy is essential for being equipped and ready to face the last days and meeting the Lord in peace when He returns. So, a time frame frames essentials.
It is necessary to understand how the sanctuary services and priesthood worked if we are to grasp Christ as our high priest and what the heavenly sanctuary is about, especially as it applies to last day events. But, it is not necessary to understand all the details of all the sacrificial offerings and laws pertaining to the ancient system. The Lamb has been slain. They looked forward. We look back. They needed a human priesthood. We do not. These things make for deeper insight when studied. They would not be essential for our time.
Therefore, I do not believe there are essentials and nonessential teachings. Given human history and all that has happened, if God has been pleased to install it in His book it is essential, depending on the time frame. Some things are timeless. Other things both timeless and timely.
I admit that when men take it upon themselves to determine what is 'essential' and what is not, such activity is fraught with danger to my thinking. Especially is that the case with the nature of man in general, and certainly in our day and age when people cannot concentrate for longer than a few minutes. TV frames are the most unnatural things in the world, changing every three or four seconds. Nothing in reality looks that way. Our lives are being lied to every, single day about something - health, money, governance, and certainly religion and faith. Why would we consider any kind of list of essentials as safe for the believer's walk when people are naturally being drawn into a web of laziness regarding truth? "Cut to the chase" is not a biblical concept, is it? There is no such thing as fast food Christianity. You cannot instantly make bread, nor scoff it down without risking choking on it. If you frame a list of essentials human nature says, "Okay, got that. I'm good." The result has been churches for ages which slip into false reality of what it means to be a Christian. Laodecia is our age. It is not a good report from Christ.
As a matter of fact Philips four daughters said nothing contained in the NT. If I lived then would I have considered something they prophesied as unessential? Nay. God forbid. Timing is everything when considering essentials.
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Post by Josh on Mar 2, 2015 10:00:12 GMT -8
asaph,
don't have time to respond to all your sentiments there, but let me reframe the question for you based on your own reframing: what are the "timeless" Christian beliefs/ how do we identify them?
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Post by asaph on Mar 4, 2015 7:47:16 GMT -8
Far be it from me to attempt to delineate "essential" timeless truths.
If one began reading Scripture from Genesis they would see important things repeated:
Elohym is the creator of the universe and the recreator. A light shines upon all men that creation gives reasons for a creator. That life only comes from life - the timeless, living God, Yah, and there is life in blood (which is so essentially deep on so many levels as to take a lifetime to ponder the essential nature of it). Man is fallen, has a sinful nature, and is bound for death. Man needs recreation, salvation from the penalty and power of that sinful nature and its results. God, the Creator, became a real man and died in man's place taking the penalty for sin upon Himself. If someone will receive the gift of repentance and receive Christ, the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the perfect life and sacrifice for sin, as their Lord and Saviour from sin He will forgive and cleanse and empower them to live a holy, obedient life by His grace, through His faith, unto His good works given to us through the influence of the Holy Spirit in man's being, man's conscience, the 'heart and mind,' and change their character to be like Christ's. Those who disregard or reject this gift, this plan of salvation shall be judged by God, based on the light they had, and have to face God someday to answer for that rejection. Christ is both our Advocate and our Judge. The wages, the results of sin is death. Some will live eternally with the Creator and Saviour. Some will die the second death. Eden lost shall some day be restored and there is a whole mountain of stuff in between there to consider and know, which would be essential to know depending on the time you live in.
Even if you agreed with every word here there is an utter futility of man attempting to whittle the Bible down to some essentials deemed as such by sinful, fallen minds, regardless of honest intent and length of walk with God. What may be essential for me to know and understand today may not be enough for tomorrow.
I do not believe in sinner's prayers, as though mouthing words created by man can save someone. The intimate nature of individual salvation is not something we can code and put into tracts. We can say here is the bottom line; You are a sinner. You need salvation. Accept Christ as your Saviour and be saved and live forever or, reject and die. That's a pretty large book in front of me for such an essential bottom line. Doesn't say much about God's character. It essentially leaves great questions unanswered that would contribute to someone's making the right decisions in life.
We often hear the Who am I, what am I doing here, and where am I going questions in discussions of origins. I'd call that essential. Well, that's a cover to cover investigation and then some.
God's word is essential. That is the only essential I am able to state with confidence.
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Post by kevingodlovesyou on Mar 1, 2022 7:06:43 GMT -8
for He is a triune God;
***This is the most essential christian belief. Why is it crossed out? The word "essential" comes from the word "essence" which comes from the word "IS" in latin-- Sum, Es, Est, Sumus, Estus, Sunt. It's like saying the "IS" of christianity.
All the rest of those 'essence' issues pale in comparison to giving Christ what Christ is due. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, give unto God that which is God's.
Jesus DIED for answering the question about His Identity. For mere words. Words that were pointed out as blasphemous -- if they were not true, then it WAS blasphemy and He deserved to die for that sin. That's how important it was to Him.
There are all kinds of ways to deny the incarnation, to deny Christ, while appearing to embrace a form of godliness. 1Tim6 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
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