So, when you say the Trinity is an essential christian belief, do you mean you believe that belief in the Trinity is essential for salvation, for authentic Christian expression, or just that it is the best explanation of some essential Christian doctrines (the nature of Christ + the nature of God).
I know this thread is super long (sorry about that), but you might notice on the earlier pages our wrestling to define what we mean by "essential".
I am a Trinitarian, however, I don't believe that it is essential to adhere to that explanation of the Godhead to either be saved or authentically Christian.
I have been surprised in the last several years to learn of some alternate ways to understand the relationship between Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit that do not lapse into outright heresy.
This has humbled my stance on the subject somewhat, though I still do think the Trinity is the best way to explain the Scriptural evidence.
So, it's an interesting topic to me for sure.
Also, was that list of yours meant to be exhaustive, or just 2 key elements you were focusing on?
This is a tough subject. I think my best response here would be to say that I'm not the one who decides whether or not a person is saved. That is up to God.
I don't think a person needs to have a well defined belief in the Trinity in order to be trinitarian. As long as people believe there is only one God, the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, I think they are being consistent with Scripture.
Although I know I'm not the one who decides whether or not someone is saved, I wrestle with how it is possible that someone who has the Holy Spirit can deny Jesus' deity. If the Holy Spirit is to do the following things:
John 14:26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15: 26"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the
Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13"But when He,
the Spirit of truth, comes,
He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"
He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
From my understanding, the Holy Spirit always points back to Jesus and to what Jesus said. From Scripture, I believe that Jesus claimed to be God, but not the Father. From these parts from John, Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit as someone other than Himself or the Father.
If the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth, point us back to what Jesus said....then we have to wrestle with these absolute claims by Jesus:
John 8:24
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;
for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 8:28
28So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that
I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:58
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born,
I am."
So one important question would be what Jesus meant by the term "I am He" in verses 24 and 28. If He meant by this only that He is the Messiah, that would be one thing. But if He meant that He was both the Messiah and the I AM (with the belief that the Messiah is the I AM -- so a claim to be the Messiah would also be a claim of Deity), then that would be very relevant to the discussion.
There are a bunch of other I AM statements that Jesus makes in John. John himself wrote in John chapter 1 - 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
and
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
and
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
There are numerous passages in which Jesus is identified as God, but not the Father throughout Scripture. Since there is only one God, there have to be at least two persons here that are Him, and then you have all of Jesus' words about the Holy Spirit.
If a person really knows Scripture, in my opinion, it would be impossible to ignore this, and I would think that the Holy Spirit would convict people of this and give them understanding when reading Scripture about Jesus.
I literally do not understand how a person can read any version other than the NWT and come to the conclusion that God is not triune. (NWT = New World Translation -- the Jehovah's Witness Bible. They actually changed passages in their translation so that it would say what they wanted it to say.)
I think the concept is taught in Scripture, and to deny it would be to deny what Scripture clearly says.
And if Jesus isn't God, then that's going to affect every other Christian belief that the person has.
Belief in the trinity separates Christianity from every other religion out there.
Is belief in Jesus' deity necessary for salvation? It kind of sounds like it from what Jesus said in John chapter 8. Also, I don't understand how someone could deny His deity and still declare Him as King of kings and Lord of lords, or surrender to Him as the Lord of their life. I don't understand how they could truly confess Him as their Lord and Savior. In order for Jesus to even be Savior, He would have to be God. But then again, I'm not the one who decides who is saved and who isn't saved.
What about Oneness Pentecostals and other Jesus Only groups? I don't know. They do believe in Jesus' deity. I think they are wrong when they say that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I think they are not being true to Scripture. But does that mean that they aren't saved? Not necessarily. Again, I have a hard time understanding how, if they have the Holy Spirit, they have not been led to a more Scriptural view, but I don't think that the Oneness view is as bad as denying Jesus' deity. At least they recognize His deity.
I believe it is a serious problem when people deny Jesus' deity. And in my mind, no I do not consider them to be Christian. Otherwise, many, many people would be Christian. People in other religions value Jesus. A lot of people like His moral teachings. A lot of people think He was a good person. Some even believe that Jesus was a New Age teacher or a gnostic teacher or a great spiritual master. However, it is only the Christian faith that makes the absolute claim that Jesus was both human and God.
I guess a good question to ask would be what would it mean to deny Jesus' deity if He truly is God?
- I think it would mean that the person would be denying God Himself and denying His own testimony about Himself throughout the Bible
What would it mean to deny Jesus' deity if He is not God?
- This would mean escaping idolotry -- because if Jesus is not God, to worship Him would be idolotry.
So the question is which is true? Is Jesus God? There can only be one truth about this. He is either God or He is not. You can't have it both ways. If He is God, then it is right to worship Him. If He's not, then it would be sin.
I believe that the Bible points to Jesus' deity.
That is the reason that I think it is so essential.
By the way, I'm using the NASB when I quote Scripture.