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Luke 16
Jan 25, 2008 10:27:22 GMT -8
Post by robin on Jan 25, 2008 10:27:22 GMT -8
Post your comments/ questions/ discussion starters on Luke chapter 16 as replies to this post.
I am curious how others think of the story about Lazarus and the rich man. Do you consider it to be an factual story, or do you see it as a Parable? Personally, I think its a parable. However I want to find out what others think, and why.
Robin
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Luke 16
Jan 26, 2008 9:40:23 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Jan 26, 2008 9:40:23 GMT -8
I've always seen it as a parable, even though it has some elements that are different than the average parable. For instance, in most parables the characters aren't given personal pronouns (this is the only case in the New Testament).
However, Lazarus means "God helps"- it's the Greco-Roman version of Eleazar. That's a suitable name for the poor man in a story about God's "preferential treatment of the poor" (as some would say) and the reversal of fortunes in the kingdom of God.
It's also instructive that the self-absorbed rich man has no name, because it reinforces his unimportance, his irrelevance, to the kingdom of God.
As to what this parable can and cannot offer to our understanding of eschatology, the state of the dead, the salvation of folks before Christ-- that's a tricky subject. For brevity sake, I think we should just be careful how much firm doctrine to develop off of this passage.
That said, the story does seems to back up as true the general view of Hades that most cultures in the ancient world held, with the notable exception that the Jews thought there was a special part of Hades (paradise/ Abraham's side) reserved for the blessed- set apart from the rest of the dead.
I believe, as far as I can remember, that Jesus is not inventing this stuff out of whole cloth, but commenting on the inter-testimental development of ideas about the afterlife.
How much do you think we can say about eschatology/ the afterlife/ the salvation of those before Christ, from this text?
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Luke 16
Jan 31, 2008 10:53:37 GMT -8
Post by robin on Jan 31, 2008 10:53:37 GMT -8
Personally, I think we can take very little or nothing from the text and apply it to the afterlife. This however is a favorite passage to many that hold a view of eternal torment.
I have learned a couple things recently that have helped me with my understanding, and one of them you already pointed out. The name Lazarus which is a Greek form of the Hebrew name Eliezer. But I would also like to point out that Eliezer is also an old testament Character that stands as a symbol for gentiles.
Genesis 15:2-6 2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
It is also quite possible that Eliezer is the same trusted servant that Abraham sends out to find a wife for Isaac in Genesis 24.
However, in regards to the rich man, I think we are given a view of his identification.
Luke 16 19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
First of all we see that the rich man is clothed in purple and fine linen. We also see that he called Abraham his father, and last of all we see that he has five brothers.
Genesis 35:23 23 the sons of Leah were Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun;
I think what we have here is a description of Judah.
Beyond these facts, it would seem rather odd that God would send someone to hell for being rich. There is no sin that is actually attributed to the rich man, and conversely there are no righteous attributes that are attributed to Lazarus. I think we see that Judah and all Israel were about to have their kingdom ripped away from them and handed over to the gentiles.
Matthew 21:42-43 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.[/i]
in its contexts I think this is the best explanation for the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
Robin
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Post by Josh on Feb 2, 2008 9:18:40 GMT -8
Robin,
I really think you have something there. That's quite compelling and woud clear up a lot of the mystery of the parable. It also would fit very well with this recurring theme in Jesus' parables in general. Fascinating.
Regarding what this parable might tell us about Jewish (and Jesus') affirmations about the state of the dead, when I get a chance I'm going to dig back into a portion of Wright's "Resurrection of the Son of God" because I think he deals with this a fair amount in there, if I'm not mistaken.
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