|
John 5
Aug 22, 2007 5:53:50 GMT -8
Post by nathaniel on Aug 22, 2007 5:53:50 GMT -8
Post your comments/ questions/ discussion starters about John chapter 5 as replies here.
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 22, 2007 20:26:16 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 22, 2007 20:26:16 GMT -8
1. 2Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades.This verse contains good evidence for John being written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, earlier than many date the book. 2. Here's an interesting early Church quote on Jesus' defense for healing on the Sabbath: "If he had not been the very Son and of the same essence, the defense he offered here would have been worse than the charge. For no viceroy could clear himself from altering a royal law by asserting that the king also broke the law. Not only would he not escape, but he would even increase the weight of the charge against him. But in this instance, since the dignity is equal, the defense is valid. And so he says, in effect, “Absolve me from the same charges from which you absolve God”John Chrysostom, 4th Century 3. On another note, what do you guys make of Jesus' final words to the disabled man he healed: 14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 24, 2007 9:46:41 GMT -8
Post by sarah on Aug 24, 2007 9:46:41 GMT -8
Vs 14 is a challenging one, I was really struck by how sharp that must have sounded to a man who culture believes was paralyzed because of either his sin, or his father's sin.
There are a couple of ways that I thought of to look at it. First it makes me wonder if Jesus is connecting his previous condition with past choices he had made. It doesn't say in the passage that he was born disabled, perhaps sin had led him to a reckless lifestyle that had resulted in an injury. Second, was the thought that a life stuck in sin and serving a sinful nature is very much like being paralyzed, but ultimately it is worse because it leads to emotional and spiritual death.
I also really liked vs 44 "How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from God."
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 26, 2007 19:26:31 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2007 19:26:31 GMT -8
Good thoughts, Sarai.
It's really hard to know what Jesus knew that we don't when he said that. I guess we can hypothosize on what John meant by including the info, and I like the linkage you suggested between physical and spiritual "crippling".
In John 9, John includes another healing story that empatically argues against sickness always being caused by sin, so it may be that here Jesus is addressing, as you suggested, a situation in which sickness was caused by sin.
Or, perhaps a third option would be that Jesus was emphasizing that physical healing and renewal should lead to spiritual renewal and rebirth- a rebirth characterized by desire to not sin. This certainly matches what John has to say in 1 John. The worse that may happen is probably not physical illness, but perhaps spiritual repurcussions.
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 26, 2007 19:49:33 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2007 19:49:33 GMT -8
How about this compare/ contrast:
John 5:25
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 5:28-29
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Here's how I read this passage theologically:
Starting with the death of Christ, the righteous who died before him and the righteous that continue to die have received life in his name (I link this with the first, spiritual resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6), but still await the final, physical resurrection of their bodies. Thus, the now, and not yet of these parralel but divergent passages.
Also, verses 28 and 29 are, I think, a good argument against seeing the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the ungodly as separate events separated by 1007 years- the Tribulation and the Milennium, as futurists hold.
Rather, the Bible, here and elsewhere, is pretty clear about the entirety of the physical resurrection (for the righteous and the unrighteous) happening at the physical return of Christ at the end of the Milennium.
Will I bait anyone here?
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 27, 2007 19:41:01 GMT -8
Post by Alex on Aug 27, 2007 19:41:01 GMT -8
Hello all, finally throwing in... Some thoughts as I read: - John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"
This seems to me to be no small point. I think the question is not just lip service, but a real challenge facing people in difficult situation. Do I really want restoration? It's surprising how long I've gone not really desiring removal from a sin or hardship.
- John 4:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
This strikes me as a strong emphasis that the sabbath is for man rather than for God. Additionally it places weight that whatever work we do, He is much more active. It's no small gift that there is a period set aside to focus on receiving his effort.
- John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
When I read this it emphasizes to me that Jesus born of Man and God was not only necessary to place him as redeemer, but also justify his role as Judge.
- John 5:7 "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."
An interesting footnote I noticed was this:
John 5:3 Some less important manuscripts: paralyzed—and they waited for the moving of the waters. 4 From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease he had.
If it is to be read this way it alters the meaning of the man's reply greatly, speaking towards his pitiable condition - but also his strength. To be willing to wait such a length of time for healing speaks of his perseverance.
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 27, 2007 19:47:12 GMT -8
Post by Alex on Aug 27, 2007 19:47:12 GMT -8
How about this compare/ contrast: John 5:25
. . . the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 5:28-29
. . . all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out
I read "and come out" as a strong differentiator between the two verses.
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 28, 2007 15:45:59 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 28, 2007 15:45:59 GMT -8
Yeah, the 'come out' reference makes it clearer that it's talking about the physical resurrection, as opposed to a spiritual one earlier, huh. Does it speak that to you?
|
|
|
John 5
Aug 28, 2007 16:54:26 GMT -8
Post by Alex on Aug 28, 2007 16:54:26 GMT -8
It does, although granted I've only been reading the NIV translation, so I haven't tried slicing it at different angles.
|
|