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John 2
Aug 13, 2007 14:35:05 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 13, 2007 14:35:05 GMT -8
Post your comments/ questions about John chapter 2 as replies to this post
I love how Jesus' first miracle is turning water to wine. The frivolity of it speaks volumes about the overwhelming, excessive goodness of the gospel- the 'new wine' of forgiveness and sonship/ daughterhood.
Blomberg makes an interesting remark about this story, regarding the historicity of John:
"Given the early Christian tendencies towards asceticism, it is unlikely that a story of Jesus deliberately producing large amounts of wine, with which at least some of the guests could have become quite drunk, would have been fabricated without a strong historical basis"
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John 2
Aug 13, 2007 22:06:49 GMT -8
Post by nathaniel on Aug 13, 2007 22:06:49 GMT -8
It does seem like a peculiar way to kick off your ministry. I'm assuming the Jews had quite an ascetic streak in them too, and for this to be his first miraculous sign that, "thus revealed his glory," and caused his disciples (all jewish right?) to "put their faith in him." tight!
i also dig that idea of frivolity and the overwhelming, excessive goodness of the gospel. tight!!
It's cool too how at first glance this story wouldn't seem to give any particular help to the historical reality and/or reliability of the events. But, when someone really hunkers down and thinks about them in their cultural context, it does. tight!!!
bedtime!!!!
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John 2
Aug 14, 2007 9:15:11 GMT -8
Post by sarah on Aug 14, 2007 9:15:11 GMT -8
Hi gang, jumping in with ya! I was thinking as I was reading yesterday, "I wonder what other things Christ had already done that made his mom tell the servants to go to him and do what he told them to do." I found myself curious if he had already been doing some "home miracles" to help out the family... sort of "Hey Jesus we are out of eggs, could you get us some". I realize this is a bit irreverent, in the gospel of Thomas style, but the recorded event would seem irreverent to some as well. I often find myself curious about what it would have been like to raise Jesus. What was he like when he was sick, did he ever bite his mom while nursing , did he have to learn to tie his sandals, take turns? I am certain he got grounded for the whole temple expedition. Just a few odd thoughts.
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John 2
Aug 14, 2007 13:14:21 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 14, 2007 13:14:21 GMT -8
Yes, there are some pretty crazily fanciful accounts written about childhood miracles Jesus supposedly performed (such as in the Infancy Gospel, but all these accounts were written a hundred years or more after the life of Christ, as you're well aware. Still, I think you're on to something. Mary seems to know Jesus has powers, and that probably means she has seen the miraculous in His life already.
I personally liked the fictional (though well-researched) account of Jesus' early years that Anne Rice offers up in her "Christ the Lord" book. I know some of her conclusions might be controversial to some, but I thought it was the best, most believable treatment on the subject I have seen.
I tend to favor imagining Jesus' youth as as human as possible- having to learn things, scraping his knee, being shy of girls, etc.. but also characterized by a growing awareness of His mission and true identity as He "grew in wisdom and stature" (Luke 2:52)
It is good to ponder these things so that we are constantly reminded that we have a high priest who can sympathize with our weakness (Hebrews 4:15)
Glad to have you on for the ride!
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John 2
Aug 15, 2007 8:26:17 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 15, 2007 8:26:17 GMT -8
From the ISB commentary:
"New wine is created in the "old" vessels of the Jewish purification rites, symbolizing that the old forms are given new content. It is innacurate to describe this miracle as Jesus' rejection of the waters of purification and hence a symbol of Jesus' rejection of Judaism. Rather, jars stood empty, waiting to be filled. Jewish vessels are filled with a wondrous new gift. This miracle is thus neither a rejection nor a replacement of the old, but the creation of something new in the midst of Judaism"
This quote highlights that the gospel was in continuity with the Mosaic Covenant. Although I quibble a bit with the authors use of the word replacement (because I do think there is some replacement going on here), the New Covenant is certainly not a rejection of the Old, but a fulfillment of it, in continuity with it.
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John 2
Aug 15, 2007 13:47:25 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 15, 2007 13:47:25 GMT -8
In regard to the "cleasing of the Temple" at the end of John chapter 2, of course, there is some debate about why John puts this event at the beginning of Jesus' ministry while the Synoptics put it at the very end-- in fact, as one of the catalysts to Jesus' death.
Some argue that John puts it at the beginning of his gospel for thematic reasons (to introduce certain themes in the life of Jesus). If we take John to not be attempting a strict chronology, this might work, but there is a detail in John's version of the story that mitigates against this: the Pharisees make a time reference about the building of the Temple, which would seem to indicate that this event happened between 26-28 AD, too early to be at the end of Jesus' ministry by the standards of either of the two major proposed chronologies for the ministry of Christ, which are, roughly AD 27-30 or AD 30-33.
BTW, based on my studies, I favor the dates 27-30 AD for the ministry years of Jesus' life (his death taking place in AD 30) for several reasons, the point above being a major one.
The other view is that Jesus cleared the Temple twice, once near the beginning of his ministry and once at the end, and the Synoptics tells us about one and John the other.
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John 2
Aug 15, 2007 15:41:28 GMT -8
Post by nathaniel on Aug 15, 2007 15:41:28 GMT -8
Maybe I missed it, but if the John probably isn't bumping the story ahead for emphasis, and the second solution is Jesus cleared the temple twice, what's the first solution?
Another question on this. I always thought of this incident as being spontaneous, Jesus walking into the temple, seeing what's going on, then reacting. Is the part where he "makes" a whip out of three cords, him actually premeditating this or is it him just seeing three cords (whatever they were) at one of the vendors, grabbing them, and using them as a whip? And how did He not get in a serious fist fight, or at least tackled for doing this?
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John 2
Aug 15, 2007 19:57:41 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 15, 2007 19:57:41 GMT -8
The first solution would be him bumping it ahead, but I think there's some signficant problems with that theory.
I think Jesus may have indeed premeditated this action- based on pondering Jeremiah 7:11 and Psalm 69:9 and verses like it.
Blomberg indicates (although we don't know with precision) that Caiaphas the High Priest may have just recently moved the Passover vendors from their prior location in the nearby Kidron Valley to the front door of the Temple. Such a recent and possibly controversial move may explain why there wasn't much of a crackdown on Jesus-- the authorities probably expected some kind of backlash and maybe others had done similar things that year. It may have been kind of a "let them let off some steam so it doesn't build up into something larger".
I'm not sure exactly why the particular vendors themselves (and not the Temple police) didn't apparently react with force. Maybe Jesus was just stinking intimidating!
And, of course, it should be said that it's really cool that we have this great example of Jesus in a righteous rage. It's important as we ponder His humanity to see how God Himself could be angry without sin while in the flesh.
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John 2
Aug 16, 2007 14:24:20 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Aug 16, 2007 14:24:20 GMT -8
Here's another verse that Jesus' action anticipates:
Zech 14:21b:
And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
Since this practice was almost essential for the Passover to take place (Jews travelling long distances needed a place to buy animals for the sacrifice), Jesus action looks forward to the day when "the house of the Lord of Hosts- ie, the Temple" would be the Church, rather than a physical building.
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John 2
Aug 21, 2007 15:03:09 GMT -8
Post by b on Aug 21, 2007 15:03:09 GMT -8
John 2:4
My time has not yet come
Makes me think about His knowledge of the burden that he was about to take on
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John 2
Oct 20, 2013 20:11:59 GMT -8
Josh likes this
Post by michelle on Oct 20, 2013 20:11:59 GMT -8
I have read the book of John probably more than any other book of the Bible. I love it. And I love that regardless of the # of times I have read it, there are still new nuggets to find.
Until this morning I don't remember ever cluing into the water jars being jars used for ceremonial cleaning. It makes the water into wine so much more significant. It makes the wine more than just the "new wine", but it's the wine that becomes the thing that cleans people. It is no longer the water that from the jars that cleanses, but the wine that cleanses.
Mind blown!
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