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Post by michelle on Feb 6, 2007 16:25:33 GMT -8
10/05:
I love that Paul once again mentions taking into consideration a "weaker brother". I think the idea of mentoring less mature Christians is such a novel idea and one that I feel is lacking in many churches. I really hope this is something our church can and will embrace. I know we have the potential (though I do not know if there is currently the opportunity) because I see how we come together in a time of somebody's struggles.
I also love verses 1-3 "We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God." Knowledge is certainly a helpful tool, but I really like that it is put into perspective with love. It's a good reminder to me that I can know all there is to know about God, but if I am not in relationship with Him I can't really know Him.
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 17:44:58 GMT -8
10/05:
The whole issue of Christian liberty vs. causing the faith of a weaker brother to stumble has always been perplexing to me. Because clearly there is a time to stand up for something that someone is being legalistic about. Even Paul seemingly vascillates on the subject when it comes to circumcision. In one place, he has Timothy circumcised so as to not to offend the Jews, in another he refuses to have Titus circumcised, "not yielding to submission for even an hour" (Galatians 2:1-5). How do we know when to take a stand that may be offensive for the sake of our liberty, and how do we know when to give up our liberty for our weaker brother?
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Post by nathaniel on Feb 7, 2007 17:46:06 GMT -8
10/05:
doesn't it seem like the weaker brother should have a little responsibility too. something along the lines of, "well, i see where you're coming from (why you have the freedom to do such and such)so go ahead, but i can't in good faith do that." isn't kind of funny too that when we read those passages we all consider ouselves in the strong brother camp. i've been considering lately which camp i fall in. and can a weak brother/sister become strong in there freedom and vic-E vers-E?
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Post by michelle on Feb 7, 2007 17:52:18 GMT -8
10/05:
Nate, your point about accountability is a good one. I am definitely one that believes that people need to be accountable for their own actions.
That said, if the weaker brother (or sister) truly is weaker he/she may not be able to walk away from temptation. I think that is the point of them being "weak". If a "weaker brother" can walk away, that is resisting temptation and doesn't that make him strong??
When Paul says, "if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall" I agree he is suggesting a huge sacrifice of liberty. But I think that if you did make that sacrifice, it would be temporary, although Paul does tell us that it may be permanent. If you "gave up eating meat" in order to mentor the weaker brother or to help him become stronger, I do believe there would be a point that he would no longer be weak.
Even if you had to "give up meat" for life doesn't Jesus tell us to love another as He loved us? That kind of love is the unselfish love that has us put others before ourselves. Shouldn't this be what we are trying to emulate even if it means a sacrifice for ourselves?
Rhetorical questions: What would you give up to keep someone in our group from stumbling?
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Post by nathaniel on Feb 7, 2007 17:54:59 GMT -8
10/05:
i totally agree that part of what makes a weaker brother weak is not being able to resist temptation. i also agree that if you had to "give up meat," (even) for life for a brother it's what we're called to do. and that we should be trying to emulate the love Jesus showed for us to each other. the point i was throwing out there wasn't necessarily about temptation though, it was about conscience. let's use alcohol for instance, since it's an easy one to site and one i am currently dealing w/. it seems like someone, a "weak brother," could recognize on a biblical basis that drinking alcohol was A.O.K., but not themselves, in "good conscience," drink. not because they are tempted by it, or had an issue with it in the past. they just felt like they weren't supposed to. in that instance it seems maybe they could withold themselves while still recognizing that for others it was cool. maybe, though, at that point that would show a certain amount of strength. i don't. as for your rhetorical question: i can't think of anything specific for our group in particular, but hopfully almost anything. as for something closely related though, i've currently and pretty seriously been thinking about giving up drinking totally to hopefully benefit some fellow brothers, and because it may have recently become a conscience issue for me. maybe because i think me stopping would benefit others and i haven't? i guess it can be kind of circular if you think about it.
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Post by michelle on Feb 7, 2007 17:56:04 GMT -8
10/05:
Ahh, the drawbacks of message board conversations.
I now see the point that you were trying to make. Thanks for sharing your personal struggles Nate. I guess the way I see it is if you are choosing to give up a personal liberty (for instance drinking) because of a personal conviction you are actually quite strong. How difficult it is to see something that has become or been a problem and make a conscious decision to cut it out of your life. It takes an unbelievable amount of strength. I guess the real test comes when you are in an environment that is still partaking in that liberty.
My thought to people who are choosing to abstain from anything (drinking, sex, dating, etc.) is tell your brothers and sisters so that they can hold you accountable. And to the brothers and sisters of that person, if you see what you are doing start to weaken your brother/sister, stop.
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Post by sarah on Feb 7, 2007 17:57:10 GMT -8
10/05:
I like your wrap up M. When we know where others are, we can support them in that.
I thought I might share a "silly" thing that the Lord asked me to do when I first returned on the Lord. As you may know, I am rather powerfully influenced by music. It affects my mood and outlook. There is always a song running through my head. It forms the background music to my life. A few months after I reconnected to the Lord, he asked me to listen to only Christian music. Something at the time that I was very resistant to. I hated all the Christian music that I heard on the radio, I thought it was lame and amateurish. I missed "my" music! It was through this fast of sorts, that I realized just how much music affected me, and how the music I had listened to had powerfully tattooed itself upon my brain. The change in programing happened gradually as I replaced the soundtrack running through my head. It is embarrassing to admit it now, but I actually started thinking this somehow made me "more" Christian and that all Christians should do this. The Lord however quickly cleared this up for me, letting me know that what he asks of me, he is not necessarily asking of others. I was the weaker brother.
Today I still listen to probably 75% Christian music, but I listen to other stuff as well. I am just more mindful of what I put in my head. It is not an exaggeration for me to say that I can hear a song twice through, and it is locked permanently in my brain. Not always a good thing! Oh and I still really dislike the vast portion of Christian music you hear on the radio, but I have found several artists that I really enjoy and I really love some of the worship music that has come out in the last few years.
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 17:58:29 GMT -8
10/05:
Having grown up in a Christian denomination where this issue was almost always at play (with all sorts of traditonal elements from head coverings to not wearing jewelry, etc.. clashing with newer interpretations), I did often make this observation:
People spoke of not 'offending' your brother. Is that word in the King James? I think it's misleading in our culture. Offended tends to mean "pissed off" about something. And I think that lead to people who just simply disagreed about something automatically called themselves "offended". But, I agree with Michelle and Nate that the weaker brother isn't "pissed off" by liberties a stronger brother is taking, their actual faith in God goes into a crisis because of temptation or doubt. So, if I think someone shouldn't smoke or drink or wear spandex, I can't call myself a 'weaker brother' just because I disagree and it makes me angry. It would actually have to tempt me or make me seriously doubt my faith or something.
I think that's why Paul didn't care what the Judaizers in Galatians 2 thought. They just wanted to be pissed and to see themselves as better than the Gentile converts- they wanted to heap extra rules on them for selfish reasons. They weren't caused to doubt or brought to temptation.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 17:59:06 GMT -8
10/05:
I just thought of another possible exception. See how tricky this is? I think there are situations where something you're doing might trigger feelings in someone else associated with trauma. I think that definitely qualifies as "weaker brother" rather than just "pissed off brother".
I don't know... each situation is so different and nuanced. I just know that sometimes we have to stand up for liberty and other times we have to sacrifice it. Paul does both--heck, Jesus does both! (think about him picking grains to eat on the Sabbath!! and eating with sinners!)
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 17:59:52 GMT -8
10/05:
I really like this concept, "Known by God" (verse 3). Jesus also phrases our relationship with God this way. I like the emphasis, which is not primarily on our knowing of Him (which is so limited), but on His knowing of us.
It is quite a reminder from Paul, who had lots of knowledge, that it is really only love that brings us into relationship with God. I get the feeling that Paul, before his miraculous conversion (or, 'clicking', as Sarah might aptly put it), tried really hard to use his knowledge to 'save him'. Not so now. Paul had realized (or was realizing) his limitations. Knowledge is stuff we hold or posess, but love is ultimately something beyond us- something we give away.
In some times of doubt, I often have felt God tell me not necessarily to study harder, but to love. Usually after cleansing my heart with love, it is only then that I find study fruitful.
This reminds me of the song "Walls of Doubt" that I sang a while back-- a song that has often spoken to me and challenged me to adopt a different outlook:
Walls of Doubt (Daniel Amos)
There's that look in you eye I know what you're thinking It's just like the sixties to me You paint it all black
It's alright Run if you want to But I see you coming through Another wall of doubt
You hear that voice in your heart You get that longing It goes far beyond all the words The great arguments
It's O.K. Long for your lover You'll find He's standing out Beyond the walls of doubt
Love, love puts to rest Some of the questions Love, find it and see The doubts will go fading away
All through the hours of the day There's something strange growing The seed of laughter and light Way down inside you
It's alright You can let go now Love is the master's plow Crash down the walls of doubt
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