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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 20:46:49 GMT -8
11/05:
"...another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetbles." I think it's clear that the point of this chapter is that vegetarians are weak in faith. JUST KIDDING!!! This chapter closes with a bang. The other day we were talking about sin and I thought (and maybe expressed) that I wish we had a list of what is a sin and what isn't because it would be so much easier to know when I'm doing something wrong. Well, Paul clears that right up, "everything that does not come from faith is sin."
I think this chapter truly expresses one of our ideas of how we want to be known. The first part of this chapter talks about not judging brothers/sisters for doing things a little differently. Then it goes on to tell us not to do something that may cause a weaker brother/sister to fall. This is such good advice for all Christians in how to treat other Christians and frankly, how to treat everyone. Every time I read a chapter in Romans I think, "this is my favorite chapter" then I read the next one.
I am drawn to verse 14, "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." This speaks so strongly about God convicting us on an individual basis as well as a body [of Christ] as a whole. I love this verse.
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Post by sarah on Feb 5, 2007 21:48:52 GMT -8
11/05:
I find myself wondering what the modern equivalents of these things are today. We have pretty much settled the circumcision and clean/unclean foods, but where do these things show up in current Christian culture? It seems like there is a human tendancies to put should and shouldn't on so many things, but how many of them are truly make or break issues. A few I am thinking off include, alcohol, secular music, entertainment, letting your kids dress up and trick or treat, telling your kids there is a Santa Clause, tithe, Charismatic spiritual gifts.... These are things that get major attention among Christians. What do you think?
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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 22:00:46 GMT -8
11/05:
Are you wondering how one should determine if something is a primary Christian issue versus a secondary Christian issue?? Or whether the things listed above are a sin?? Can you elaborate further?
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 22:02:18 GMT -8
How might this be included in How We Want to Be Known, or do you think it already is? How would you state the core value here in your opinion?
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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 22:03:02 GMT -8
11/05:
"We are community that is willing to "debate" secondary issues, but never at the cost of love and respect" See verse 1. "We are a community in which people can exercise the various gifts of the Holy Spirit in order to "build each other up" in our faith." See verses 19-21.
"We are a community that strives to be respectful and sensitive to others in our words and actions." See verse 21.
"We are a community with a variety of political, theological, and social views and accept this as a strength." See verses 5-7
I think all of these are intertwined. "We are a community that non-judgementally accepts and appreciates each others' differences, while encouraging each other in our shared faith."
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Post by Josh on May 3, 2009 19:41:45 GMT -8
On John's forum I have been involved in a discussion about the applicability of the OT law to the NT believer. We got talking about the Sabbath and the Christian practice of church on Sundays. A member on their forums (by the name of pioneer) responded to me with this: By who's order do you do this on Sunday? It aint biblical, the Sabbath was not revolked? I am surely happy that you are forgiven, because if not, you are going to your everburning Hell! * To which I responded with this section of Romans which I found applicable: Romans 14:4-8 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. And then with these comments: As to Saturday/ Sunday, I think it's pretty clear that the Christians began to gather on Sundays very early on because the early Jewish Christians still kept the Sabbath on Saturday/ went to synagogue with their Jewish countrymen. Sunday was their day to just hang out with other followers of Yeshua. When the gospel spread to Gentiles, naturally, the Gentiles began meeting on Sundays, which was the distinctly Christian gathering. It was also a fitting day to meet, as it was the day when Jesus rose. Paul wrote the above passage in reference to the fact that some quarrels were breaking out over this. It's not that I don't believe in Sabbath, it's just that I don't think there's a particular day that must be called Sabbath. *I often get warnings about hell from pioneer I suppose at least he cares- can't blame him for that.
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Post by Josh on May 3, 2009 19:47:19 GMT -8
Another member on his forum, itiswritten, responded with this, which I thought was interesting enough to transfer over here for some discussion as well:
itiswritten wrote: The above quote relates to two issues: Eating and days. First the discussion is speaking of vegitarianism vrs non-vegitarianism. It is not discussing clean vrs unclean meats. The next section is dealing with fast days. It was the custom at the time to fast twice a week. It was not a commandment, just a custom. Some thought that it should be treated as a commandment. We see an example of this in Luke where the Pharisee is described as making the statement below.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Romans 14 is in no way saying that it is fine to eat unclean meats or not to. Neither is Paul saying that it is fine to keep the Sabbath if you want to or not to if you don't. It is a misapplication of that passage of scripture to use it as a proof text that it doesn't matter if Sabbath or Feast days are kept especially since there are so many clear texts testifying to the opposite.
I agree with you that the early believers kept Sabbath on Saturday and attended synagogue.
It is important to realize that the day begins in the evening after sundown and ends in the evening. It has long been a custom to congregate at the opening of the Shabbath (Sabbath) and at its close which would be Saturday evening by its modern name.
The first day of the week (Sunday) begins on what most people think of as Saturday evening. That is when the first day of the week begins. In all likelyhood in most cases the disciples and followers of Y'shua were closing the Sabbath on Saturday evening (First day of the week.) In light of the biblical and historical precident, it is logical that the meeting described below was a gathering at the end of the Sabbath (Saturday evening) that went until after midnight because of Paul' (Shual's) speech.
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
I am not aware of any biblical or historic evidence that confirms the above quote.
It actually was natural that the Gentiles continued to go to synagogue on Shabbat. Again, there is nothing in scripture that indicates anything fitting about switching the Sabbath to Sunday for any reason. Notice that much of the initial commandments given to the Gentiles had to do with kosher. It is also clear that it was expected that Gentiles would be keeping the Sabbath and hearing the Torah portions read in the synagogues.
Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
I have already dealt with the passage and it is clear that is not what he is discussing. Shaul (Paul) told us to be followers of him even as he followed the Messiah. Both kept the Sabbath and the Feasts. We see several places where we see how important it was to Shaul to do both.
What we think doesn't matter. What does matter is what YHVH has said. He said that the seventh day is the Sabbath. This is mentioned repeatedly so that there is absolutely no confusion on the matter. It is even reiterated by the writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 4:1-11 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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Post by Josh on May 4, 2009 14:55:11 GMT -8
I don't see how you can prove that only vegetarianism is in view here. How do you know that when Paul says one man eats everything, he's only really talking about everything kosher?
As to whether Paul is talking about just "fast days" when he's talking about "special days" here, I suppose it's possible though not provable. But that's why we need to check other scripture. And there is a place where Paul specifically mentions a diversity of beliefs/ convictions about the Sabbath in a very similar exhortation again judgment:
Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Notice, as others have pointed out, that eat and drinking are mentioned here without qualification, festivals are mentioned (feasts of Israel), and the Sabbath day specifically. Not only that, but Paul here clearly says that all of those thing have been fulfilled, their purpose has been accomplished, and so are no longer necessary in light of the present reality of Christ.
Agreed on this. It was just a matter of time before the Gentiles tended to meet specifically on Sunday. But you agree that from early on the Christians seem to have begun congregating on Sunday (Sat. evening). The rationale was that most the early Jewish believers in Yeshua still kept the Sabbath traditionally, attending Synagogue, etc.. and so were unable to just meet with other followers of Yeshua, thus the need to do that at a different time (Sat. Evening)
Other thoughts:
How can you say that Paul isn't addressing arguments over matters of conscience in the above passage?
In your quoting of Hebrews, I noticed something peculiar. This is what you wrote:
Hebrews 4:1-11 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
I highlighted the word Jesus because that's not the word that fits there, it's actually Moses. Was that just a typo or what?
You see, the author Hebrews sees the day of rest not as a 24-hour period that comes and goes, but as a permanent state that we can enter into because of Jesus. We have entered into his rest- every day for us now is Shabbat.
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