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Post by Josh on Aug 5, 2014 17:09:26 GMT -8
"We in the contemporary Western world have all but lost the ability, conceptually as well as practically, to affirm simultaneously that rulers are corrupt and must be obeyed."
NT Wright, Surprised by Scripture page 176
Thoughts?
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Post by asaph on Feb 18, 2015 17:36:30 GMT -8
I hate to sound ignorant but, I do not understand the sentence.
We have lost the ability to affirm that rulers are corrupt and must be obeyed?
What am I missing? Why would I affirm we must obey corrupt rulers? The Founders saw the right, the necessity of the citizenry to remove corrupt leaders. They are, after all, nothing more than elected civil servants.
Personally I hate politics because I cannot stand politicians. They lie like they breathe, the current POTUS perhaps the worst liar ever to hold the office. The current congress a solid wall of corruption and self-serving. Washington may be the most corrupt city in the western hemisphere at this point, all things considered of what they should be.
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Post by Josh on Feb 20, 2015 9:05:07 GMT -8
The relevant Scripture passage is, of course:
Romans 13:1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
The point is that Paul here, is advocating that Christians obey and not rebel against the governing authority of Rome. And that governing authority was in many ways very corrupt. If Paul would not advocate overthrowing Nero, what does that say about our founding father's willingness to rebel against the far less corrupt British empire of the 18th century? Was that really a Christian impulse? For more on this topic specifically, see here: Was the American Revolution Justified?
None of this is to say that Christians are to obey corrupt laws. Of course Paul advocated civil disobedience when it was a direct matter of the state vs. God's commands (for instance, being forced to worship the emperor or recant the faith). But such laws, to Paul, didn't mean that the entire governmental system should be overthrown by force. God was still using it, corrupt as it was, to restrain some kinds of evil.
Is there a point in which a government becomes so corrupt that it would be the appropriate Christian response to engage in treason or active rebellion? That's a open question perhaps, but it's interesting that Paul didn't think his situation (Caligulas and Neros and all) warranted that.
And, you're right, living as we are in a democracy, we are presented with a lot of additional dilemmas/ decisions, because we are all in some way part of the government. If I have time, more on that later. Does what I said above make any sense?
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Post by asaph on Feb 21, 2015 5:11:05 GMT -8
I'm not sure. The author is saying professed Christians have lost the ability to understand Romans 13?
The American Republic, the Great Experiment, is unlike anything before it. It forces believers to look at principle rather than outright biblical statements, to understand one's duty as a citizen of the United States. I believe God most definitely had a hand in the development of this nation, a nation I believe is depicted in Bible prophecy, Rev. 13:11-18.
The Creator states emphatically God used Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. Then, they came down at the hands of others He then used, which came down, etc. God sets up nations. He takes down nations.
I do not believe American is a Christian nation. "Christ" appears in no documents of law and order in our nation and He specifically said My kingdom is not of this world. There cannot BE a Christian nation. America has just been a nation with a majority of citizens professing the Christian religion.
That said, American citizens have the right to vote in, and out, leaders who are supposed to simply follow the Constitution. Roman citizens had no such privilege. Those who came here came to be able to worship freely through conscience and conviction. Others came after them when success garnered the Christian principles the people lived by. Those who came after were not necessarily steered or bound by Christian principle, and even those who came had odd views of freedom. It is not exactly freedom of conscience which forces a man to go to church on Sunday or end up in the stocks, or even under penalty of death, as in Virginia and Connecticut laws. I am thankful John Adams rose to denounce such laws. The Revolution was not a Christian enterprise. It brought freedom, at great loss. Freedoms we take for granted now.
My first citizenship is in Christ's kingdom. I rarely care for political matters. On the other hand if a moral issue comes up for a vote, if abortion came up for a vote, I would certainly vote on that issue as a citizen of America.
The issue is fraught with tensions. We are "ambassadors for Christ." Ambassadors represent the interests of their citizens in another nation and are never to involve themselves in the affairs of those nations unless asked. Hence, I stay out of politics. If I am asked to vote by those who run for an office, I must see reason to involve myself. Because I believe the Republic of the United States of America is the best system of civil governance ever devised by man and offers the greatest freedom to extend the gospel throughout the world, I would loathe to see it destroyed by those who are socialists or fascists or even communists amongst us. The current presidential administration contains all those. Prophecy predicts the once lamblike nation shall speak as a dragon and cause a whole lot of problems for God's true people, the remnant. And that trouble shall then cross the globe. So, America is lost. I should say, Americanism is lost. It is gone in Washington, DC. A revival amongst the electorate to uphold the Constitution will only result in persecution once again. You cannot force or legislate morality of the kingdom. If so we would have to arrest people for looking at women with lust, etc, etc. Politicians cannot even change their own oil let alone be given issues of morality to legislate upon. More so when we see the corruption amongst them.
Obamacare is an abomination. Nonetheless Christians are bound by the laws of Christ's kingdom to render to Caesar what Caesar demands, unless the demands strike against obedience to God. STILL, we are not the Roman Empire (in principle anyway). We are free to vote. Unfortunately few there be who run for office that are actually honest people and statesmen. We are not going to see another John Adams, or Washington, or Jefferson, or Lincoln as POTUS. Even Lincoln was no saint when it came to sticking to the Constitution. Ah, but, a civil war is not something the Founders foresaw.
Should German Christians have remained silent as Hitler was running his camps?
Should Christians remain silent as they see wannabes attempting to ruin the Republic and ultimately enslave the citizenry?
Should they stage outright rebellion? Take up arms? Well, forget the arms. It isn't muskets and cannons now. Firepower is always on the side of the people who run the Pentagon. A military coup to stop the corruption? That would not help.
All that can be done now is shout the gospel from the rooftops while there is freedom to do so. Trouble is coming. Big time.
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