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Post by mmurphy on Jul 11, 2014 13:42:55 GMT -8
Hello everyone, my name is Mike, this is my first post.
I've discussed this question on another forum before, and have gotten mixed results, but I find it a fascinating topic and also very important.
So to get the ball rolling, I believe in an eternal hell, but not in the sense that most people have come to understand it in. For a long time, I came to disbelieve that any "good" person would end up in Hell, regardless of what they believed. However, I didn't have any real conviction to this idea, nor any real theological support for it, I just didn't believe it happened. After I watched the movie called "Hellbound" which I thought was a fair assessment on the different theories about the afterlife (notably, Eternal Torment, Annihilation, and Universalism) with a slight slant toward universalism. This prompted me to really dig deeper into the issue. That essentially took me to accept the Eastern Orthodox opinion that Hell is a single "location" which is in the presence of God, and depending on the person's state (i.e. hatred or love for God) that presence is felt as eternal bliss or eternal torment. Many people cite a the 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." However, I do not believe that scripture indicates eternal separation but rather the loss of the bliss attained from being in the glory of God with a clear conscience.
That being said, I believe all three have merit, and I for the life of me I do not see how a Christian who is commanded to love his enemies can not at least sincerely hope for the reconciliation of all to God.
What do you all think?
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Post by Josh on Jul 12, 2014 17:49:12 GMT -8
Agreed with your final thoughts and I too have at times pondered hell along similar lines as you described.
Welcome to the forums! How'd you find us?
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Post by stevekimes on Jul 31, 2014 19:53:17 GMT -8
I've always held with eternal torment, but I am now leaning more toward annihilation, simply based on the justice and mercy of God.
I think God is intending to create a kingdom in which shalom can be established, and that would have to be without prejudice, without hatred, without hypocrisy, without greed or sexual impurity. But if someone lives this way for 60 or 70 years, does that mean they should endure torment for all eternity. I wouldn't mind if the worst offenders-- Hitler, etc-- got a little bit of torment, but even they... an eternity? That just doesn't seem just.
I think there is leeway in the biblical text that the Lord will listen to those who have learned forgiveness and mercy and it seems that the people of God would have the opportunity to plead for mercy, and I think they would. After all, these are our friends and family.
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Post by Josh on Aug 2, 2014 7:59:39 GMT -8
I voted "other" because I don't think Scripture gives us a slam dunk on any of the three major views. I suspect that is for a reason, probably that too certain of information on the subject would be detrimental to us in one way or another.
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Post by jaybee on Aug 28, 2014 17:46:51 GMT -8
I guess I'll post on this thread as well, since I have had to sit around at the Dr's office all day, so I've been pretty active on here.
As I have studied out olam and aion, I do not believe ET can really even be considered any longer as a genuine possibility except for the drilling into our thought processes from tradition.
Christians can agree ET does not seem rational even to a renewed mind.
The evidences of olam and aion actually meaning a really long time has been beaten to death by numerous sources.
And really the only way ET is supported in the circles I encounter is by the mistranslation with the english word eternal. Then, upon encountering protest, the ET supporter insists that it may not sound right to our loving heart - to which God is supposed to be giving us the love which is misdirecting us - but we cannot question God.
It seems that to unquestioningly adhere to the ET theory, I must question God anyway, because the idea offends the love God has put in my heart for his creation. So I must question how loving he is making me towards people he desires to place in eternal torment.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2014 18:18:31 GMT -8
True, true. The ET view doesn't seem to harmonize with the character of God revealed in scripture no matter what kind of mysterious spin one tries to put on it.
I think the fact that there is, and always has been, so much cognitive dissonance in Christendom over this view ought to at least give us pause to put it in our statements of faith or try to make it an essential.
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Post by asaph on Feb 14, 2015 10:47:07 GMT -8
Greetings. Newbie here. I came upon this forum doing a search for setting up my own forum (for drummers with a Christian worldview) and decided to join. I forgot about it and then got the 'welcome aboard' the other day. Thought I'd come and see what's happening today. Came upon this thread, something very near but, not dear to my heart.
I'm a Christian 36 years now. I was an atheist. It was the doctrines of "hell" and Purgatory, as taught in the RCC which developed a disbelief in God within me as a child, which I carried through my teens and early twenties. "If God is like that, there is no God, and certainly not a God who is love." Spent many hours in school debating with believing friends. Not one of them showed me what the Bible teaches about God's character, and discussion of "hell" was met with "Well, that is what people choose." My answer was always the same - "Who struck the match? Who ignited the flame? Who sends people there?" Looks of confusion were my consistent answers. And basically, the final answer was, "Well, you have to believe in something." It was a largely Catholic CT town, student body, or friend circle I had. Not my parents, nor relatives, nor friends, nor priests, nor anyone could answer my questions with any authority or common sense or spiritual logic. I wished I could believe but, not in a God who burns people in some magical flame that never goes out, and sends children there or just 'regular folks' who claimed no special belief or practice but, lived decent lives.
At 24 all that changed. When the Scriptures became my daily bread this subject was a major concern for me. The Bible does have answers, simple answers, based on a thread of reasoning which is present cover to cover.
Not a single time in 4,000 years of old testament history is there a single warning to a single person they would spend an eternity burning if they died with no living connection to God. There are dozens of statements that rebellion and open or secret practice of unrepentant sin would be met with ultimate destruction. I have asked many, many Protestant pastors to explain this total miscarriage of justice, if the former is used to sentence people to a punishment they never even heard of. Even the gas chamber, or injection, or electric chair is by far a more compassionate ending to a life of unmentionable crimes than is the unheard or unmentioned penalty of burning forever not being warned of it. To charge the Creator with tormenting or torturing people with a flame which never goes out and never warning them makes Hitler look like a choirboy. Four thousand years. At least one warning MUST be mentioned for such a penalty to be just, if even then. And the last verse of Isaiah is certainly not a qualifier given the context of the chapter and obvious preceding verses.
Can we come to the new testament and believe that the Messiah came with the warning after 4000 years? Not a single person spoke upo and said, Wait a minute, wait a minute. Stop the music. What are you talking about? Where did THAT come from?" Sure, Christ said many startling things that upset the apple cart for the institution and people but, if they made a fuss about what they did, common sense tells me they would have caused riots over the fate of the lost as understood by popular doctrine today.
When I then saw the actual Greek and Hebrew, by definitions, and saw both old and new testaments harmonizing, there was only one thing I could believe - God will, by simply unveiling the fulness of His glory at the close of the millennium, consume everything corrupted by sin - the planet, Lucifer, rebellious angels, and mankind. Destroyed simply because our God IS a consuming fire. One can have their sin consumed by His glory working in the inner man now, or one can be totally destroyed by His glory when it is fully unleashed upon a corrupted, sin-cursed world at the white throne judgment. Death is death, not dying. The second death is it. Ashes. New earth comes next, the Master Gardner using the ashes to recreate things more beautiful than at the beginning. There isn't going to be some wailing and gnashing of teeth detour in the universe we have to go around so as not to have our peace and joy and harmony disrupted by eternal, screaming agonies of the lost, be they former friends, relatives, or total strangers.
If "everlasting fire" was "prepared for the devil and his angels" it must be explained to me how God has been sending the "cursed" to such a place for six thousand years and the devil and his angels get to run around on earth wreaking havoc in every direction. Either Satan is in "hell" or he's not. He cannot be in two places at the same time. He does not have omnipresence. If God has been sending the lost to "hell" before the active agent who caused the need for the "everlasting fire" gets there, what an enormous miscarriage of justice! Please, do let us have common sense. If Satan is hanging around, at the very least the final punishment has yet to take place.
Sorry for the long post, especially being my first but, this subject is one that has great meaning for me. The truth caused me to love God and not hate Him; caused me to see His character in a way never portrayed to me before, and answered untold questions about attached subject matter which had puzzled and angered me for many years previous to my conversion.
God is good. God is able. God is love. And God IS a consuming fire.
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Post by Josh on Feb 15, 2015 19:59:09 GMT -8
asaph,
Glad to have you here, and don't worry about long posts 
Sorry it took so long to approve you. We've been on a bit of a hiatus around here. Just waiting for some fresh voices perhaps, so glad to have you contributing.
As to this topic, do you label your view "annihilationist"? |
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Post by asaph on Feb 16, 2015 7:03:41 GMT -8
Thank you for the welcome.
I truly dislike the term and do not use it. I have not done a study to see where the term came from, as far as this subject. Might be more accurate to call me a Consumist. Our God, a consuming fire, has determined a consumption upon the whole earth, Is. 28:22.
To say God is going to annihilate everything seems so crass and certainly foreign to His character. It will not be an easy thing for the Creator to do, to consume the Earth and the lost upon it. Isaiah also makes that plain.
He does not annihilate. He cleanses. Fire cleanses. As destructive as it can be it always paves the way for new life.
I may be coming from a place of semantics but, just the way my heart and mind sees it.
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Post by Josh on Feb 16, 2015 9:17:19 GMT -8
Some use the term conditional mortality- focusing on the idea that mankind may not be inherently immortal.
But consumism puts the focus not only on humans but on all creation. I like the term! It also makes me think of Aslan's quote in the Silver Chair by C.S. Lewis:
"I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms," said the Lion. It didn't say this as if it were boasting, nor as if it were sorry, nor as if it were angry. It just said it. |
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Post by asaph on Feb 17, 2015 5:17:02 GMT -8
Conditional mortality versus natural immortality of a "soul," yes. I am a Conditionalist regarding life and death.
You mentioned Plato in another thread and I do reject Platonism when it comes to the subject of life and death. I do not believe the Bible comes close to endorsing the presence of a ghost living in humans that gets out at death and goes to heaven or "hell." I see that as a total misrepresentation of the Bible stating man's temple is noble, though unfortunately fallen, and a place where the Holy Spirit abides, where Christ abides. Nobility is everything in Scripture. We are children of a king whose kingdom is eternal. Death stalls entrance into that kingdom. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. I believe death really happens, not some kind of transition or jail break from our rotten bodies. Our physical nature is not something to be derided which death allows for some supernatural freedom from. We are to be sanctified spirit, soul, and body > intellectual nature, emotional nature, physical nature.
I believe the natural immortality of the "soul" is a lie that underlies almost all satanic deceptions in history. From the garden right to the close of history lies about death and what comes next shall play a part in how Satan draws in humanity to his net.
I hasten to add, as I reread this, that the kingdom, as an active principle, is within us, as Christ stated. I was referring to the physical entrance into the heavenly kingdom upon Christ's return.
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Post by rodgertutt on Aug 17, 2017 6:16:33 GMT -8
ANNIHILATON When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation). 3. The salvation of everyone. A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead. One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION? www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html INTRODUCTION: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false. |
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Post by rodgertutt on Aug 17, 2017 6:18:01 GMT -8
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Post by rodgertutt on Aug 17, 2017 6:19:29 GMT -8
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