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Post by Josh on Dec 30, 2013 10:28:32 GMT -8
It's not just internet, Steve also cites many of these quotes in his Revelation Four Views book. What his sources were? I don't know. It's a long held historicist claim however. I'll check it out. My off the cuff thought is, though, that the genuine quotes are not out-and-out heretical but push the boundaries for Protestants. Then Catholic-bashers throw in a few spurious ones to make the whole batch look devilish. I'll bet that Steve included the former. But I'll eat my words if need be
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Post by Josh on Jan 22, 2014 12:15:07 GMT -8
Hahah... I finally checked out Steve Gregg's citations of these kinds of quotes by Historicists. All his footnotes say is "as cited in Historicist writings"
Kinda lame I have to say....
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Post by robin on Feb 3, 2014 12:54:04 GMT -8
No more lame than Catholics and their defenders dismissing any criticism as nothing more than just anti-Catholics making stuff up.
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Post by Josh on Feb 3, 2014 17:11:35 GMT -8
Dont know if you're referring to me there, but I do not claim that everything anti-Catholics claim is made up. But, knowing the history of emotionally charged rhetoric, it is highly likely that some of their claims are made up and I'm especially suspicious with quotes such as these that don't pass the muster of appropriate trails of documentation. Steve's inclusion of them in his book does nothing to add to their historical validity as he did not vet these sources independently (and he probably despaired of doing so anyway).
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Post by robin on Feb 3, 2014 19:54:25 GMT -8
I'm not interested in calling you lame, because I have so much respect for you. However, I don't consider these quotes and the siting of them lame by any measure. They are documented and the quotes canada had mentioned he also gave the documents where these quotes were taken from. For example, canada wrote:
"The Pope is the Supreme Judge of the law of the land ... He is the viceregent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords". La Civilta Cattolica, March 18 1871
I am all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do, what therefore, can you make of me but God." Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world."
A decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, "The Most Holy Councils." col. 1167
Pope Nicholas I declared: "The appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man." Labb IX dist.5 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur,
Decret Gratian Primer.
You're certainly free to research and attempt to debunk these quotes if you believe that they don't actually exist, or that they are taken out of context, but to simply say they are " supposed "quotes by popes" on the internet", leads one to believe that you don't think they actually exist and never did before anti-Catholics jumped on the internet and started slandering the popes. I disagree. Just because something is on the internet, does not make it spurious. I for one have no problem believing that men who clamor to the top of religious organizations have a god complex, especially when you are talking about an organization as powerful as the Catholic Church.
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Post by Josh on Feb 4, 2014 12:51:19 GMT -8
And I should back off a bit on using the term lame to begin with. I wasn't really trying to call Steve lame. It would have been better for the historicists case to have someone like Steve vet their sources independently, and I think it's telling that he didn't, but, I should have chosen better words.
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