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Post by Josh on Apr 30, 2013 19:40:51 GMT -8
Do any animals have any degree of free will? Opinions?
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Post by Alex on May 1, 2013 23:10:13 GMT -8
My cat does.
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Post by Josh on May 2, 2013 12:03:55 GMT -8
What evidence can you submit? ?
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Post by Alex on May 5, 2013 22:57:01 GMT -8
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
Also my cat is quick to instruct, encourage, and reprimand.
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Post by Josh on May 6, 2013 19:50:44 GMT -8
The reason I posed the question in the first place is that I have always assumed that one major difference between humans and the rest of the animal world is that we have free will and they don't. But I was thinking about the higher animals (whales, chimpanzees, for instance, or even certain mammals like dogs and cats) and began to wonder if perhaps free will is experienced in proportion to brain complexity. Maybe the higher the animal, the more free will?
But if animals do have free will, does than automatically mean they can sin? Or can they just have free will without moral consciousness?
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Post by stevekimes on May 9, 2013 16:41:11 GMT -8
I have certainly seen dogs sin and feel guilt.
The more I look at animals and read studies about animals, the more "human" they seem, and the smaller the divide gets. I still think there is a divide, but I wonder if it is more on degree, rather than nature?
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Post by Josh on May 10, 2013 6:18:25 GMT -8
Steve, could you elaborate on what you've seen in dogs regarding sin/ guilt? I'm very curious about that. I've always been much more attuned to the world of cats.... and if I saw a cat feel anything close to guilt I think I'd keel over.
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Post by stevekimes on May 10, 2013 7:13:56 GMT -8
When a dog is rebuked, they bow their head, just like a human. Well, sometimes, they will bow their head after doing something even though no one is there. That looks like guilt to me.
I'm mostly a cat person, too. Their usual response to me rebuking them is, "What? You've got the wrong cat. I'm just licking myself."
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Post by Josh on May 12, 2013 20:10:37 GMT -8
But just because an animal can be shamed doesn't mean they actually know the thing they did was wrong-- or does it?
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Post by stevekimes on May 12, 2013 22:10:55 GMT -8
I have found that as soon as we look at an animal (or child or slave, as has happened in history) and say, "they don't really feel that, it's just imitation" or whatever, then we are normally wrong. There have been detailed studies done on dogs to determine their "language", and while I am not a student of this, I do know that studies have shown that they feel guilt/shame. I have no idea how that is determined.
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Post by Josh on May 13, 2013 16:25:27 GMT -8
My default position has been, based on what I've read and experienced, that animals don't experience guilt or shame and don't violate their conscience. But I wouldn't explain what looks like shame in dogs as "imitation" but simply as sadness at their master's approval.
But I'm open to seeing it another way. It just seems to me that Scripture assumes that the ability to violate one's conscience is something uniquely human.
So, it seems the discussion has two parts: are all animals morally innocent and do any of them have free will?
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Post by Alex on May 17, 2013 13:26:20 GMT -8
I suspect that animals lack a sense of self in context to their actions - while they may still recognize their actions have consequence. In this way I venrure they can experience guilt but not necessarily shame.
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Post by Josh on May 28, 2013 18:19:36 GMT -8
Interesting.... I think I might say the opposite, that they could experience shame but not guilt.
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