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Post by christopher on Dec 16, 2012 22:41:12 GMT -8
Since nobody has started a thread on this, I thought I'd go ahead and dare to. (Yes, I realize my subject line is link bait ) I have to admit Friday was pretty tough for me. I haven't cried that hard in a long time. I couldn't watch or read much news because I just couldn't do it without falling to pieces. As a father, it was just too much for me to imagine the horror that the kids and their teachers went through in their final seconds of life, and the on-going nightmare that their families must continue to endure for years to come. Unthinkable. Now that a few days have past, and the painful heartbreaking wounds this tragedy has created for everyone is beginning to subside, I know that this question is on a lot of people's minds. Josh, you did a great job in attempting to answer some of those tough questions today in your message. But I always find our typical answers to these questions so woefully inadequate from the standpoint of someone who is an outsider or even just someone on the fringes of the kingdom. I often find myself thinking this simply can't be done in a sound bite, or even a 30 minute teaching. Putting on the goggles of someone who only sees the tragic loss of young lives at the hands of a maniacal psychopath who gets to conveniently check out before answering for his crimes, I can totally see that our answers must seem like empty platitudes and vacuous defenses to preserve the image of an impotent imaginary God who can't protect His people. It seems to me that it requires such a radically different paradigm to even begin to enter into an eternal perspective of what happened Friday. And even when we gain that perspective, we're stumbled by these seemingly senseless tragedies. Words are entirely inadequate to satisfactorily answer these questions. My question is: As kingdom people, what does it take to convincingly show the world that we serve an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God in these situations?* *Ugh, even the question is woefully inadequate.
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Post by LadyAjax on Dec 16, 2012 23:45:41 GMT -8
I too think Josh did a good job balancing tension of following a plan for a Christmas message of hope and also addressing a national tragedy.
One thought I had while listening to the message today was that sure, for those 20 families in Bethlehem there was a huge silver lining of redemption, the ultimate redemption for all of humanity. But what kind of redemption is there for these poor families. How can they ever get to a place where they can look back and think "well, I can see how God used this for his glory". And even if they can eventually get there, as Chris discussed, what can we possibly say to them in the way of comfort now?
It is in the face of situations like this where I feel like all I have is an inarticulate vocalization of confusion and a helpless shoulder shrug when unbelieving friends ask "You're smart, given the evidence, how can you believe that God takes ANY interest in the day-to-day, goings-on on this planet??"
I have a girlfriend who has a go-to soundbite for just about all circumstances. "God answers prayers" I'll pray and then sleep on it and see what kind of answer I get.
...First I will pray for ears to hear.
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Post by Josh on Dec 17, 2012 17:49:42 GMT -8
I'll be back with some thoughts, but for now I'd like to post some lyrics to a song from the new Choir album (I shared a bit on it a few weeks ago at church, but it's been going through my head a lot since these tragedies). I think it hints at some partial answers.
Learning to Fly
I'm gonna separate The green glass from the clear And try to be more responsible So glad to be here Forty thousand Indonesians Fathers, mothers, children died When Krakatoa blew sky high
I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly
Time will evaporate The tears of yesteryear As they tumble to the sea And rise to the stratosphere Make that phone call, write that letter Live today to make amends Yes, I know I've hurt you, dear friend
I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly
Everybody suffers Is it enough to cry When ashes fall on the innocent? Spirit of God, love within Free my soul to ride the wind (But how is mercy reconciled With the pain of a wounded child?)
I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly I'm living to love in a dying world I'm learning to fly
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Post by christopher on Dec 17, 2012 21:40:52 GMT -8
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Post by christopher on Dec 19, 2012 19:09:28 GMT -8
“Don't ever discount the wonder of your tears. They can be healing waters and a stream of joy. Sometimes they are the best words the heart can speak.” ― Wm. Paul Young, The Shack I think this is the first thing we can do. Show the world we're wounded by this tragedy too. Christians would do well to just weep together with those that are hurting and sit in it for awhile. Let the heinous event prick our hearts and touch us profoundly. Let it cause us to yearn for a better world when Jesus returns.
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Post by Josh on Dec 22, 2012 9:12:21 GMT -8
Acts of horrendous evil and instances of horrific suffering may indeed be inscrutable to those who haven't begun to see through kingdom eyes, and I fully agree that requires humility and tact and avoidance of stock answers.
However, it's interesting, because throughout history many people have begun to see things from a kingdom lens precisely because of inexplicable evil in the world- inexplicable because their current worldview (atheist, buddhist, new thought, muslim, you name it) couldn't begin to make any sense of it.
The existence of evil and suffering are double-edged swords that can powerfully draw people toward or repel people from Jesus' kingdom understanding.
Either way, first and formost, we are called, as you say, to start with simply bearing the pain with those who are crushed.
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Post by Alex on Dec 30, 2012 11:08:41 GMT -8
I don't have an answer, but I do have a piece of Job 36. There are several good passages in the book.
Job 36:2 “Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God’s behalf. 3 I get my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe justice to my Maker. 4 Be assured that my words are not false; one who has perfect knowledge is with you. 5 “God is mighty, but despises no one; he is mighty, and firm in his purpose. 6 He does not keep the wicked alive but gives the afflicted their rights. 7 He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever.
We appreciated the heat in context of the cold; and the cold from the heat.
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Watchermike
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Post by Watchermike on Feb 2, 2013 8:22:13 GMT -8
After the Amish killings(or the movie "Amish grace") I found that God was teaching forgiveness in that instance and this one as well. While people have their feathers ruffled over these senseless killings God has already forgave the killer. I firmly believe everything happens for a purpose under God. I't may seem like a harsh lesson of forgiveness but God knows what He is doing. He is, after all, in control.
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Post by Josh on Feb 2, 2013 17:49:26 GMT -8
I feel like you're seizing on one potent truth here but neglecting another. It's not that people have their "feathers ruffled"* but God has forgiven the killer. It's that God simultaneously feels the pain and outrage deeper than any of us AND still has forgiven.
*and don't you think that expression minimizes the real tragedy and pain?
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Post by Josh on Feb 2, 2013 17:53:15 GMT -8
I firmly believe everything happens for a purpose under God. I't may seem like a harsh lesson of forgiveness but God knows what He is doing. He is, after all, in control.
This sounds dangerously close to saying that it was God's direct will that this evil happen. I'd be curious your thoughts on a related thread:
Six Things Not to Say After Sandy Hook?
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Post by Alex on Feb 6, 2013 21:00:22 GMT -8
Sorry, where is the indication that the killer is forgiven? If forgiveness is given by grace as God's designed response to honest confession and remorse, followed by turning away from sin - where did the killer ask for any of that?
It's humbling and loving that God helps the hurt forgive their oppressers, and I fully believe God helps with that release. Yet I haven't seen that God himself forgives the unrepentant.
Part of the tragedy in the suicide is that the killer denies himself the discovery of forgiveness; as if more tragedy were needed.
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Post by Josh on Feb 6, 2013 21:40:21 GMT -8
There are two aspects to forgiveness. There is the offering of forgiveness and the acceptance of forgiveness.
Jesus asked God to proactively forgive the sins of mankind:
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Just as God loved us while we were yet in sin, he has provided for and offered forgiveness to us.
But, yes, we have to ratify that forgivenss and appropriate it through repentence and acceptance.
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Watchermike
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Post by Watchermike on Feb 7, 2013 13:16:04 GMT -8
Well, how would've you known if he was saved or not? Maybe he repented his sin and asked for forgiveness in the shelter. Only God would know what really happen. God would know what would happen before it happens that's why the boy is alive. Maybe the little boy lead him to God. Everything happens for a reason, for Gods good purpose.
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Post by Josh on Feb 11, 2013 12:47:27 GMT -8
Well, how would've you known if he was saved or not? Maybe he repented his sin and asked for forgiveness in the shelter. Only God would know what really happen. God would know what would happen before it happens that's why the boy is alive. Maybe the little boy lead him to God. Everything happens for a reason, for Gods good purpose. Riccetts, Are you referring to the other incident with the kid held hostage?
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Watchermike
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Post by Watchermike on Feb 11, 2013 15:17:12 GMT -8
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