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Post by atheist jon on Jul 8, 2012 21:56:28 GMT -8
Let's assume a couple of things.
1. I am going to die an atheist. Not for a while yet I hope, but I will leave this life as a non-believer.
2. I am a good person. Not a perfect person of course, but basically a decent human being. I do no harm to anyone. I am honest, kind, considerate and respectful. If someone is in need of help and I am able to assist, I would do so.
So I have used my rationality, reason, logic and critical-thinking skills, and based on a lack of evidence I have come to the conclusion that there is no reason to believe in a god.
You and your god consider this to be a 'sin'. So for this FINITE crime of non-belief, do I deserve to suffer the unspeakable agonies and torture in hell for INFINITY? No chance of mercy. Apparently.
Do you agree with God that I deserve this?
And before you say that it is not your place to judge me, I am NOT asking you to judge me. I am asking for your opinion.
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Post by Josh on Jul 9, 2012 0:54:13 GMT -8
I'd like to post a link to our previous discussion on "Does God condemn skepticism?". I don't know if you saw the responses to that similar question or not: www.aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=apologetics&thread=3693&page=1Let me give you a short answer, point by point. 1) This is no slam against you in particular, but I am skeptical about your claim that you don't do harm to anyone. It seems to me that it's simply part of being human that at times we do harm others in one way or another. 2) I think there is plenty for an absolutely perfect God to judge all of us on without bringing our doubt/ skepticism into the mix, if he were to even "judge" that at all. 3) I don't think God judges us for skepticism unless it is based on self-deception or laziness. 4) You are assuming a particular view of hell not held by all Christians. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 9, 2012 21:25:08 GMT -8
Atheistjon, I think part of the problem with the question lies in the assumptions of your premise.
To 20th century westerners, "believing" is merely a mental acknowledgment that something is true. So it's very hard for someone like yourself to see the justice in judging someone that honestly doesn't find the evidence convincing.
However if we put it in its 1st century Jewish context and say that "believing" actually means something more like "follow" or "submit" to someone that has the rightful authority to rule, than it's much easier to see why it would be a sin not to. Rebellion, treason, and insurrection are generally considered worthy of judgment in most cultures you look at. It's not distinctly Christian.
So yes, I agree with God.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 9, 2012 23:14:57 GMT -8
Josh. You should stick to long answers. They may be more convincing.  1. Has everyone at one time or another done harm to someone else? Yes of course they have. Does your disingenuous nit-picking negate my point? Certainly not. 2. How are we supposed to know what God is going to be judging us on? Well, we only have the bible to reference. Nothing else. And it quite clearly states that my skepticism is very high on the list of supposed transgressions. Even the kind and loving son of this kind and loving god backed that up. 3. Perhaps God doesn't judge us for being skeptical during our lifetime. But should our lives end whilst we are still exercising this skepticism then it's eternal damnation in hell. Regardless the way we conducted ourselves throughout our time as mortal beings. Self-deception? This implies that some people choose to be skeptical when they have certain knowledge of God's existence. Any examples of anyone who is guilty of that? And laziness? Okay. You got me. Guilty!  4. Well this is exactly why the first question an atheist should ask a Christian apologist in a discussion is "What do you believe and why?" Or in this case, "What DON"T you believe and why? |
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 9, 2012 23:43:18 GMT -8
Christopher. So presumably, should it turn out that in fact your religion is all a bunch of hogwash and some other religion is the correct one, and you find out this means that YOU are to spend eternity in hellfire, you will accept this meekly and say "Fair enough."?
Someone may have the rightful authority to rule but if they then become a monstrous despot who displays psychopathic tendencies, is it morally wrong to rebel against that? Is it right and lawful that they should condemn me for that? I would say not. History tends to agree with me.
And finally to why I find some religious dogma so exceedingly distasteful;
That a good and decent person such as yourself, should consider another good and decent person such as myself DESERVES eternal torture in flames, is shameful and always very disappointing. Just for the 'crime' of using my critical-thinking abilities to come to the only conclusion I can possibly come to.
Only religion could make an otherwise fine human being believe such a thing, Christopher.
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 8:37:49 GMT -8
First off, it wasn't disingenuous and I don't think it was nit-picky. You said you not perfect, but you "do no harm to anyone". I guess you meant that you intend to do not harm to anyone.
Anyway, maybe you think it's nit-picky because we are coming from different perspectives on the holiness of God. From the Christian view, the difference between one person's sins and another is trifling, but the vast gulf between an absolutely perfect and flawless God and any deviations from perfection (such as in fallen humanity) is terrifically horrific. It is as shocking as if one day gravity ceased to operate as it should.
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Post by christopher on Jul 10, 2012 9:01:51 GMT -8
Jon,
What Josh and I both tried to point out to you were your logical fallacies in the opening question. Your reasoning may be sound, but if your premise is false, then your argument lacks punch.
But let me be more plain so there’s no mistake.
As Josh pointed out, your question poses a false dilemma in that it implies only two options for you: 1) Eternal bliss in heaven OR 2) Eternal torture in hell. What if there was another option? For example, once you die and you stand before God with eyes and understanding wide open, He granted you the opportunity to change your mind. Contrary to popular opinion, the bible doesn’t rule that out. Also, there are 3 widely held views of ‘hell’ including Annihilation and universal reconciliation.
I pointed out to you that your premise was a straw man fallacy because you misunderstood or misrepresented the meaning of ‘belief’. God never said all you have to do is merely give mental assent to His existence. He has always said that you must obey Him.
As we’ve pointed out in the other thread you brought up, skepticism is not considered a sin, in fact it is considered noble (see the Bereans in Acts 17). What is sin worthy of judgment is willfully suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (see Romans 1 and 2 Thess 2).
You opened this thread with the statements:
And
That tells me that you have closed your mind to the possibility that you may be wrong and you’re not really here to discuss with an open mind, but rather you’re here to win converts to your belief system.
Your blasphemies about God being a monstrous, psychopathic despot beg the question.
I hope I’m wrong about that conclusion, but that’s just what it seems like to me.
BTW,
I never said that.
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 10:27:30 GMT -8
The Bible itself disagrees in insisting that God has also given men a conscience which is generally reliable:
Romans 2:13-16
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 12, 2012 19:48:51 GMT -8
Josh. Ahh. So we DO have an inate morality? From whence a society will ultimately set out its own rules and laws. So we can now agree that we are dismissing Christianity as a source for peoples sense of right and wrong. We don't need the bible to guide us as far as morality is concerned? Or am I jumping the gun a bit here? I feel I may have done. |
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 12, 2012 20:55:56 GMT -8
Christopher, thanks for the reply. Well, what may be a false premise to one person, might be entirely accurate to someone else. But I accept that my premise does not accurately reflect what you personally believe. I would be interested if you could point me to the passages in the bible concerning the alternatives to hell and the possibility of changing ones mind before God. This is new to me. Incidentally, I am prepared to change my mind tomorrow, if presented with undeniable proof. So God, if you're listening.... I also accept your definition of belief, in this context anyway, but obviously if I don't believe in God then then my servitude to him is irrelevant. But I understand the point and appreciate the importance to you as a believer, and so any strawman that I made was an unintentional one I assure you. Yes you are right, I did say and rather assumed that I would leave this life as a non-believer, and I can see how that could come across as closed-minded. Writing that again I would add 'almost certainly' or 'probably'. Just to satisfy my own usual high standards of accuracy really. After all, you never know what may happen. As I am sure you are aware Christopher, atheism cannot possibly be labelled under the term 'belief system'. Not if we are going to try and be accurate that is. Now, which one is my favorite....? Ah yes. NOT collecting stamps. Is that a hobby? I don't mean to deliberately offend anyone. I may end up offending them with what I say, but that is a different thing altogether. I've read about some of the actions of your god in the Old Testament and I'm calling him out on them. If that is blasphemy, then so be it. You may want to tiptoe around topics such as the morality of God's commands to Moses for instance, but these are foremost in the minds of many people who are, or become atheists. No, you never said directly that you thought I was deserving of an eternity in hell. And if you don't believe it either, then I apologize for implying you did. And happy that for you at least, unlike so many others in your religion, you don't have to harbour such thoughts. I am still unused to being exposed to such a level of religiosity as there is here in the United States. Even in Portland it is seemingly everywhere. I don't remember having any church-going Christian friends or acquaintances before I came here. Now I have many. They are good people and we get along great. But sometimes I just don't want to know too deeply what they do and don't believe. |
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Post by stevekimes on Jul 13, 2012 7:31:02 GMT -8
The Bible never says atheists go to hell. It never says Buddhists or Protestants or Catholics or people with red hair go to hell either. It says that those who claim to be of God but don't act like it go to hell. And it says that all those who persecute God's people go to hell. Apart from that, it's a guessing game.
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Post by christopher on Jul 13, 2012 8:14:22 GMT -8
Hi Jon, I do appreciate your willingness to continue to dialog in a rational and irenic manner and I’ll gladly take you at your word that I’m mistaken in my assessment of your intentions here. It’s not that your premise doesn’t reflect what I believe, it’s that it doesn’t represent what is actually revealed in scripture. I realize that some traditions have reduced salvation to a mere empty confession, but that’s not what Jesus nor the apostles taught so it can’t be used to put God “in the dock” regarding your eternal destiny. I do realize that it’s absurd to ask someone to submit to a King they don’t even believe is real, but it’s not unreasonable to suggest that they continue to honestly seek truth. The reason there is debate among Christians about this is that scripture is not as clear about this as many have assumed. The Catholic church did such a good job of entrenching the tradition of eternal torment in the fabric of orthodoxy that most people just take it for granted. But other thinking people have re-examined the doctrine and have found it wanting. Personally, I now see it as the least likely of the 3 views. There are a few threads on this forum that discuss this topic more at length if you’re interested. Josh:Here's a link to the sub-forum where you'll find advocacy for all three views and more: www.aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=afterlifeboardOk, I’ll grant that atheism is not a belief ‘system’, but it is still belief because the truth is, you don’t know whether God exists or not. The way you’ve described your position sounds more like agnosticism to me (which is a much more honest and respectable position in my opinion). Although it is true that telling a Christian that God is a monstrous, psychopathic, despot is like telling him his wife is ugly, my point for saying that wasn’t that it offends me. The point I’m making is that it is circular reasoning (begging the question) to make those conclusions because it presupposes some arbitrary moral standard that is then uses that standard to judge God’s actions. [/url]Nobody is “tiptoeing” around anything here. These are questions that Christians wrestle with too. But it’s fairer and safer to approach it with questions than conclusions. That’s unfortunate since Jesus came to put an end to religion. I guess there's still work to do |
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Post by Josh on Jul 14, 2012 10:55:43 GMT -8
Josh. Ahh. So we DO have an inate morality? From whence a society will ultimately set out its own rules and laws. So we can now agree that we are dismissing Christianity as a source for peoples sense of right and wrong. We don't need the bible to guide us as far as morality is concerned? Or am I jumping the gun a bit here? I feel I may have done. Yes, I think there may be jumping of the gun According to Christianity, our conscience is basically an instrument built in by God that is generally a decent indicator of right and wrong. The problem is that our consciences can easily become damaged, seared, jaded, and corrupted; they are fragile instruments. Therefore, we are certainly in need of direct revelation. On another note, as a an atheist (and I've been trying to pin you down a bit on this), what is your basis for knowing what is right and wrong? If there is no God building an objective right and wrong into the universe, what is your guiding principle for making moral decisions? |
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Post by Josh on Jul 14, 2012 11:03:31 GMT -8
chris:
Knowing you personally, Chris, I knew that when you described jon's statements as "blasphemy" you weren't have an emotional reaction to it, but I can totally understand if Jon took it that way, because crying "blasphemy!" and getting miffed is a pretty common knee-jerk reaction many religious folk have, wouldn't you agree?
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Post by Josh on Jul 14, 2012 11:05:56 GMT -8
Jon, can I challenge this just a wee bit? I'm quite positive that you have changed your mind millions of times based on something less than "undeniable proof". Hasn't solid evidence often convinced you to change your mind, and is that a better standard than undeniable proof, which, if you think about it, is basically non-existent for any truth claim and even possibly questionable for even the hardest of scientific claims. In other words, aren't you setting the bar for your acceptance of Christianity unrealistically high? For more along this lines, see my thoughts here: Proof or Evidence? |
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Post by ladylinda on Jul 14, 2012 13:17:23 GMT -8
I have only just joined so I hope no one will mind me expressing my own point of view on this subject. It's one I've thought about a lot over the years especially since I was a very bad person as a teenager.
I believe that God is love and God is a merciful and forgiving God.
Ultimately He will forgive us all but that does not mean we won't need to go through some sort of Divine rehabilitation programme.
At least that's how I see it.
I hope I'm right but of course I don't know at all; I can only speak as my heart guides me.
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Post by Josh on Jul 14, 2012 21:28:06 GMT -8
anyone is free to jump in. the more the merrier plus, now, jon has a fellow Brit to banter with |
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