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Post by robin on Jul 15, 2012 18:50:22 GMT -8
I have now listen to the book twice. I've been studying Revelation again and read through it a couple times last week. Each time I'm left wondering about Seven Thunders in chapter 10. Given that Seven thunders wears a rainbow over his head, and the book of Enoch has been fairly concealed until recently. Any thoughts?
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Post by Josh on Jul 15, 2012 22:06:41 GMT -8
Could you explain a bit more? I don't understand that last sentence.
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Post by robin on Jul 16, 2012 7:42:58 GMT -8
In Revelation Chapter 10 the angle that delivers the little scroll to John that wears a rainbow (1) and is clothed in a cloud (2) and speaks with a voice of 7 thunders (3).
1. The first point seems rather obvious as relating to some prophecy from prior to or relating to the flood. I could wrong, but I don't think so.
2. Enoch was taken up to God and never died, and that may be why we see this angel wrapped in clouds.
3. In the Book of Enoch the prevailing theme of the redeemer is the lord of 7 Spirits. All of the book of Enoch seem to prophesy about the coming of the Messiah and the final judgement in some striking and scary detail if one has a mind to believe.
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Post by Josh on Jul 16, 2012 11:20:36 GMT -8
Backing up a few steps.... i think I have a copy of 1 Enoch I printed up and made some notes on years ago. I'm going to try and dig it up because I don't remember a ton of specifics.
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Post by robin on Jul 17, 2012 5:35:21 GMT -8
I need to make a correction. Enoch prophesies about the Lord of Spirits, not 7 spirits, thought that makes little difference in my mind.
As I re-read this thread I realized what I had said and wanted to make the correction.
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Post by Josh on Jul 17, 2012 9:24:25 GMT -8
It just dawned on me that we don't have a good place for discussions of "non-canonical" books, so I'm making a new folder and moving this there, btw.
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Post by robin on Jul 17, 2012 10:29:45 GMT -8
Good idea because I was not sure what to do with the subject matter, and it could get spread around.
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Post by Josh on Jul 21, 2012 10:12:42 GMT -8
Robin, The next two weeks are going to be super busy for me, but if I have a chance, I'll dust of Enoch. If not, I will get to it eventually.
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2012 17:12:52 GMT -8
Okay, I read through most of the book of Enoch again this weekend.
Some thoughts:
1) I'm still convinced it is pseudopedographa (not actually written by Enoch or in the time of Enoch), but rather compiled over a period of 300 or so years before the Christian era. 2) Nonetheless, it contains many accurate anticipations of New Testament theology. 3) It's obvious that the New Testament authors and even Jesus himself were influenced by it's concepts (especially the term "son of man" as a messianic title, the use of the term and concept "elect", the pre-existence of the Messiah, the idea that the messiah will judge all mankind, the idea that there will be a physical general resurrection, etc.. 4) For the most part, it's moral and theological points don't seem problematic or at odds with the rest of Scripture 5) It's scientific statements are flawed (for instance, it insists on a precise 364 day calendar) 6) The New Testament alludes to it much more frequently than most modern Christians are aware- far beyond one mere quote in Jude. The sheep and the goats, the idea that we will judge angels, the sword coming out of the messiah's mouth, the appearance of God in Revelation-- these and many more are strikingly similar to passages in Enoch. 7) Reading Enoch basically proves, imo, that Jude's comments* about "angels who have abandoned their positions of authority" (Jude 1:6) lend his support to the idea that the Nephilim of Genesis were indeed children of fallen angels and humans.
Thoughts anyone?
Robin, I expect you'll agree and disagree on some of these points.
*and probably Peter's in 1 Peter 3
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Post by robin on Sept 8, 2012 20:28:40 GMT -8
Chapter 72 Verse 31 says that in the Shabath year (every7) there is a week added to the year, it is like adding a leap week, kind of....
The year of Jubilee referred to in the book of Enoch in that passage, by the way.
It is a Calendar divisible by the number 13, and not 12. Over the long run it adds up the same.
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Post by Josh on Sept 10, 2012 19:33:29 GMT -8
Closer, but not still not precisely ( 365.242199 days). Does that make a difference? In reading Enoch I didn't pick up any predictions associated with this calendar. Did I miss something?
The actual length of the year was already known to other cultures, so it's not really a mark of supernatural revelation unless this book really was written as far back as the real Enoch (which I doubt)
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Post by robin on Sept 10, 2012 21:22:51 GMT -8
You have my book so it is a little difficult to reference. When you have time we can actually sit down and look at it together.
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Post by robin on Sept 11, 2012 7:41:16 GMT -8
I think that 365.25 is the same as our calendar when you add the leap year every four years by adding one day to February.
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Post by robin on Sept 11, 2012 11:26:42 GMT -8
Closer, but not still not precisely ( 365.242199 days). Does that make a difference? In reading Enoch I didn't pick up any predictions associated with this calendar. Did I miss something? The actual length of the year was already known to other cultures, so it's not really a mark of supernatural revelation unless this book really was written as far back as the real Enoch (which I doubt) Regarding the calendar, the book claims its information was derived devinley, and so far as I can tell the incredible accuracy of not only the span of a year but the reading of the sun and moon and how they actually move in the sky is like nothing else I have seen from any other ancient culture. Do you Josh, think that the revelation was received in a vision like that described in the book ( regardless of dating and authorship) was accurate or a fabrication? I don't see any reason to accuse the author of dishonesty.
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Post by Josh on Sept 11, 2012 13:46:44 GMT -8
364 days a year plus 7 added days every seven years equals 365 days a year (not 365.25), right?
If written pre-Flood, yeah, it would be pretty amazing. But if written when most scholars think it was written, the knowledge of a 365 day year is not spectacular.
I don't know. It wouldn't be the first time someone has fabricated a vision- sincerely or disingenuously.
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Post by robin on Sept 12, 2012 19:07:43 GMT -8
364 days a year plus 7 added days every seven years equals 365 days a year (not 365.25), right? If written pre-Flood, yeah, it would be pretty amazing. But if written when most scholars think it was written, the knowledge of a 365 day year is not spectacular. I don't know. It wouldn't be the first time someone has fabricated a vision- sincerely or disingenuously. So in your opinion Jesus and other authors of the books of the bible that refer to the book of Enoch may have been referencing a prophetic fabricator?
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