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Post by robin on Jul 8, 2012 5:33:03 GMT -8
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 8, 2012 11:01:30 GMT -8
So my point is a bit off topic and so I'm sure it can be moved elsewhere (or deleted), but stories like this cause me to muse somewhat.
How do believers feel about the fact that the vast majority of scientific breakthroughs, discoveries and advancements are made by people who have no belief in a god or gods? Left to the incurious brains of the religious we would all still be living in the Dark Ages.
On top of that religious people cherry-pick science in the same way that they do their holy books. You accept that which is convenient or supports your point of view, and reject or ignore all that which does not.
How do you come to terms with such overt intellectual dishonesty?
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Post by Josh on Jul 9, 2012 1:05:05 GMT -8
Dude, most of the movers and shakers of the scientific revolution were Christians! One can easily support the case that the scientific revolution happened in Europe precisely because of the Christian worldview.
It's not just religious people who "cherry pick" their beliefs. It's a human tendency that we all need to be aware of and develop some resistance toward.
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Post by robin on Jul 9, 2012 9:17:00 GMT -8
"Overt intellectual dishonesty".
Why don't you do some "honest research" and look up where the scientists came up with the name "CERN" from? A little hint, you may have to look into to the occult if you dare seek the truth.
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Post by stevekimes on Jul 9, 2012 9:17:50 GMT -8
When we don't belong to a group, especially if we are antithetical to a group, we find it easy to discover an outlying opinion or a fringe group within the larger group, and claim they are "all" like that. Christians do that with Muslims all the time and sometimes atheists.
But I find that atheists do this with Christians a lot. It's easy to look at one person or a group with the group and say that it represents the whole. It doesn't. Christianity is complex and there are many different kinds of people, rationalities, beliefs, texts, etc within that broad group.
People who believe differently than we do aren't stupid. They just look at the world differently. I think that is the basis of discussion with those with differing beliefs.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 9, 2012 21:56:07 GMT -8
Josh. Well it could be argued that the concept of a non-believer until relatively modern times was unheard of. The closest one could come to declaring oneslf an 'atheist' would be to say one was a deist rather than a theist. In those days, in most of Europe, the ONLY worldview was Christianity. Which is why I phrased my statement by saying the vast majority of scientific breakthroughs, discoveries and advancements 'ARE made', rather than 'have BEEN made' by non-believers. So whilst the religious establishment were content to have people invesigate stuff as long as it didn't conflict with what they had already decided was true, when the likes of Copernicus, Galileo or Darwin come along and rock the boat, they were persecuted for no good reason. I suppose we all may be guilty of cherry-picking on occasion. Probably the next most common reason would be to justify our political beliefs and preferences. But I hardly think this is in the same catagory as denying demonstrable scientific truths. And then attempting to foist this upon our children.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 9, 2012 22:05:55 GMT -8
Robin. "...you may have to look into to the occult if you dare seek the truth."
No one has ever discovered any truth by looking into the occult. Other than the fact that there is absolutely zero evidence that anything supernatural has ever occured in the history of mankind.
So until then I will ignore the occult and I instead used Google to find the origins of the name CERN. It's a French acronym. Not that spooky really.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 9, 2012 22:41:54 GMT -8
Steve. I absolutely agree with your opening statement and concede that I am guilty of such a trangression on more than one occasion. It's certainly convenient. However, whilst atheism is usually DELIBERATELY misrepresented by Christians, rather than a genuine misunderstanding of a very simple concept, it is hardly surprising that confusion reigns when non-believers try to make sense of what Christians actually believe. There is no consistency in what you purport to be true. This is a massive weakness in any belief system, surely. Especially when you are figuratively AND literally supposed to be reading from the same book. Or couple of books. The very existence of hundreds (if not thousands), of different sects within a religion, and indeed other totally different religions worshipping the same god, and all believing so many different ideas, would lead me as an atheist to ask the obvious questions; How can an omniscient god be so appallingly bad at basic communication? And is he going to do anything to correct this seemingly irreparable confusion?
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Post by robin on Jul 10, 2012 4:09:04 GMT -8
The name is derived from the pegan cultic god Cernunnonos, this same god know to the Celtics as Cernunnos, may have been known as shiva to the Hindus, and apollos to the antiect Greeks. Of course to the christian we would see these gods as satan.
What they are doing is creating either a giant black hole or opening up some sort of worm hole which could open the door to the gods or god from antient to return. That is what this giant ring in the ground could be built for.
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 8:30:48 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 8:32:41 GMT -8
The name is derived from the pegan cultic god Cernunnonos, this same god know to the Celtics as Cernunnos, may have been known as shiva to the Hindus, and apollos to the antiect Greeks. Of course to the christian we would see these gods as satan. What they are doing is creating either a giant black hole or opening up some sort of worm hole which could open the door to the gods or god from antient to return. That is what this giant ring in the ground could be built for. robin, if this is accurate, don't you think it's likely that the scientists working on this are just noting an interesting comparison with their work and the mythical beliefs of the past (as opposed to them actually believing them)
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Post by robin on Jul 10, 2012 9:56:24 GMT -8
What if I were to show you an actual video of one of the scientists running CERN claiming that it can open a worm hole?
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 10:30:05 GMT -8
I'm not saying they don't believe that it might open a worm hole; I'm just saying it seems unlikely that they believe in Cernunnos or that the worm hole with be a gateway for the gods.
For instance, NASA has named most of it's missions after terms from pagan mythology. They didn't expect to encounter Apollo on their Apollo missions.
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Post by robin on Jul 10, 2012 11:29:54 GMT -8
Why did NASA name its program Apollo? Our Rocket scientist, especially those from the order of the Nazis like Von Braun (The father of the US space program) seem very interested in naming things after these ancient gods.
How did the Nazis come to become so advance so quickly prior to and during WWII? Evidence shows that Hitler was heavily involved in the occult and was involved with freemasonry as well. He was a student and admirer of Alistair Crowley who was a 33 degree freemasonry how claimed 15 additional degrees over the 33. Alistair Crowley was Known as Alistair the Terrible for killing and drinking the blood of over 100 boys under the age of 13. The age of perfection according the the spirits that Alistair had come in contact with after surpassing the 33 degree of freemasonry.
Reports from U.S. fighter pilots about objects they referred to as foo fighters and other anomalies lead me to believe that the Nazis and Hitler may very well have had some supernatural help in developing advanced technology that could have won them the war. In fact following the war the US adopted their rocket programmed in something called operation paperclip which included bring German scientists like Von Braun over to expand upon the V1 rocket.
The is a fine line between certain kinds of science and black magic. Josh you should know this. The power that could be unleashed upon the earth from CERN if it opens a worm hole may be catastrophic, because we have no idea what is on the other side. Do you?
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Post by christopher on Jul 10, 2012 13:53:59 GMT -8
Will science never learn from science fiction? What did Goldblum say in Jurassic Park? "Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." and.. "God help us; we're in the hands of engineers."
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 12, 2012 22:07:52 GMT -8
Two very apposite quotes there Christopher. Great movie. I wouldn't go as far as Robin concerning what may happen at CERN regarding worm holes and what have you, but there will come a time of technological advancement that we couldn't even dream of when the complete destruction of the planet during an 'experiment' may be a possible, if unforseen result. So his general point is a valid one. And beyond looking for particles, I am not in complete knowledge of everything that happens at CERN. Even if they told me what they were up to, I could not guarantee that I could absorb and totally comprehend all of it. So Robin has really put the CERN into conCERNed.
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Post by robin on Jul 17, 2012 10:20:56 GMT -8
Josh you teach history. I was thinking about this Cern god and how he might relate to other mythical gods (or real gods if you will). Having said that, have you ever heard of Lutetia and the battle for Lutetia? I ran across this information last night and you can feel free to check my story out. I found this on Google books from a book called a travelers History of Paris.
In 53 BC there was a Celtic Ruler who refused to send some delegates to pay tribute to Cesar's assembly at Gaul. Cesar in Turn Seeing this as Rebellion by the northern tribes sent this assembly Further North to the Ile De la Cite, in order to shown strength to the tribes, but instead the Celts rebelled and and swept through the land and was Joined by the Sailors of Parisii in the rebellion. In the rebellion the ended up taking control of all of Lutetia.
However, when Cesar found out he ordered his Legions to crush the rebels. But When the Romans Legions approached lead by Labienus the Parisii figured that the could not not defend the city and decided to burn it down.
Then Labienus engage the Celtics lead by Camulogenus in a short an devastating battle and ended in the Celts defeat.
After this The Romans rebuilt the city and named the Seat of Sailor's (Nautae Parisiaci). On the exact sight where Notre-Dame Cathedral stands today, the Parisii sailors publicly erected a pillar to Jupiter most high god, and shown on the pillar were engravings of Roman and Celtic Gods doing battle.
The Pillar is called the Pillar of Boatmen. And the Celtic God on top is Cernnunos. It does interest me that the Parisii were Indian and the Celtic Cernunnos god very much resembles the ancient Hindu god Shiva. Did the Parisii pass some Ancient Knowledge to the Celtics? I 'm certain the connections run even deeper.
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