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Post by Josh on Apr 12, 2012 21:34:24 GMT -8
Post your comments, questions, and discussion starters about Jeremiah chapter 1 as replies to this post.
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Post by Josh on Apr 12, 2012 21:38:04 GMT -8
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Robin, I'm curious what someone who holds that the future doesn't exist yet would or wouldn't read into God's statement to Jeremiah here.
How can God know someone before they are born? How can God pre-appoint someone to a vocation that they are free to choose or deny?
I can imagine some possible responses, but I'm curious to hear your input (or others)
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Post by robin on Apr 20, 2012 13:10:47 GMT -8
Well since its God's creation, I think its safe to say he can know creation even before it has been created. I don't think this requires the future to already exist.
As for setting someone apart and appointing him as a Prophet, I don't see how this requires a future to already exist in order for the statement to be true. In fact, the statement could be true even if Jeremiah had failed in his duties as a prophet.
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Post by Josh on Apr 26, 2012 9:36:35 GMT -8
If God knows the future PERFECTLY then it might as well already exist. Pretty much same diff.
But I know you don't hold that God knows it perfectly, right?
Well, one extreme example (that still proves the point) would be if Jeremiah had been killed or killed himself before starting his prophetic ministry. In your system, God could not have absolutely known that wouldn't happen, right? So therefor he was promising something he couldn't actually promise.
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Post by robin on Apr 26, 2012 10:06:31 GMT -8
Why do you take the word "know" to mean that God is speaking of an exhaustive knowledge of every detail of his life?
I know my children, but not their future. Of course, I'm not comparing myself to God, but the word know could simply be speaking of an intimate knowledge of Jeremiah's Soul.
What the passage says is
"before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
He was set apart and appointed as a Prophet, but in the end it Was Jeremiah's choice to fulfill his role.
Do you think Jeremiah was free to reject God?
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Post by Josh on May 20, 2012 18:20:51 GMT -8
Well, keep in mind I'm still open to the idea that predestination and free will paradoxically co-exist (however mocked I might be by some for my calminianism ). So, yes, I might answer that Jeremiah was free to reject God but God knew he wouldn't. As to the "appointing" and "setting apart" not necessarily entailing Jeremiah actually acting as a prophet of God, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure the two can be separated.
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Post by Josh on May 20, 2012 18:22:55 GMT -8
I'm reading my own view of foreknowledge (exhaustive knowledge), based on other things, into this passage. But I'm not requiring the passage to mean that. That's why I acknowledged that you probably don't see it that way.
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shirley
Advanced Member
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Posts: 114
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Post by shirley on May 22, 2012 11:27:45 GMT -8
I thought it interesting that this discussion seems to hinge on the word "know". In Spanish there are two different verbs that we translate into know. Saber - to have knowledge of or about and Conocer - to be familiar, or acquainted with. The second is used almost only with people. I looked up these verses online (I only have New Testaments in Spanish lying around) to see which word they used. The King James and the Catholic versions both used the word "conocí" which comes from the second verb and the tense indicates an action completed in the past. The NIV translates it as "había elegido", had been chosen. "Había" is an incomplete past tense relevant to that moment in the story/conversation.
My inclination is to go with the first "conocí". I think that the second seems based on the translators personal understanding of the passage, rather than what the original text actually says. Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my two cents.
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Post by Josh on Jun 4, 2012 19:29:32 GMT -8
thanks for that, btw, shirley
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