Sunday's Discussion on Hell

[Josh]

Since the already existing thread on this is so long (and possibly daunting for people just jumping in), Robin and I would like to encourage follow up questions/ comments to be posted here for further discussion.

[Josh]

We've discussed the various meanings of aeon in the Greek (age-long or for ever), but what about it's counterpart in the Hebrew?

How would a Christian universalist interpret this verse?

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Josh]

Interestingly, Young's Literal Translation translates the words similarly to the Greek aeon, by going this route:

Daniel 12:2 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

age-during= age long

[Josh]

The Hebrew for "everlasting" in Daniel 12:2 is owlam, which, just like aeon in Greek can mean either a long age or for ever:

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 05769
Original Word Word Origin
~lw[ from (05956)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
`owlam TWOT - 1631a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
o-lawm' Noun Masculine
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
ancient time, long time (of past)
(of future)
for ever, always
continuous existence, perpetual
everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity



The fact that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical authors to use such ambiguous words is just on e more evidence that leads me to believe that God really doesn't want us to be able to prove whether He meant "age-long" or "eternal". I think the uncertainty is good for us.

[carebear]

What do ya'll think about an idea that we have the free will to choose to go to hell but God gives us the power to go to heaven. So our free will only helps us get to hell (if we so choose). We can choose Christ but He alone has the power and choice to bring us there. I'm assuming this idea goes along with the one that we can't 'work' our way to heaven. I just heard all this and was curious what the discussion board people think of this.

[robin]

Sounds kind of like CS Lewis' view on hell. Lewis said that if the doors of hell are locked, they are locked from the inside. However, I think that if reconciliation is possible for those in hell, then God will not be satisfied until he has finally defeated sin and rebellion.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

[carebear]

However, I think that if reconciliation is possible for those in hell, then God will not be satisfied until he has finally defeated sin and rebellion.

God can finally defeat sin and rebellion, but for those who choose to not reconcile and remain within the sin and rebellion, that is their choice and God will defeat 'them' along with the sin and rebellion if they are joined to it. Don't you think?

[carebear]

I think it would be annoying if someone 'forced' me to reconcile with them, no?

[robin]

Since God is not limited by time I have trouble seeing how anyone could resist for eternity. Whatever still remains after God has destroyed sin and rebellion is what is reconciled. What other obstacle could remain?

I don't think God wants to, or does force anyone to reconcile. However, God's exhaustive knowledge of us allows him to know what it will take to convince us to let go of our rebellion.

If the will of a sinner were able to resist God's will for eternity, it must be assumed that the will of the individual to remain in sin has defeated to will of God to save that person. The only other option would be for God to annihilate the souls of the rebellious. However even this to would be a defeat for God who willed that all be save and come to repentance.

[carebear]

Just so I'm understanding your response, are you saying you feel it is impossible for God to be defeated so if His will is for all to be saved, then everyone must get saved eventually or else God has been defeated (which is impossible)?

[robin]

Many people argue that God has two wills on the subject. One being that He wills all be saved, and the second that we come to him freely. I believe both are are true. My point is that if God were not able to overcome the the will of our sinful and rebellious nature than God has created a being that is capable of defeating His will. I don't think this is possible.

[carebear]

But then there is the free will to be rebellious. You're saying He will eventually not give us the freewill to be rebellious because rebellion would be non-existent? But some might say those who want rebellion would need to be non-existent if they did not want to part from it.

[robin]

The bible anticipates a time when Jesus has completely defeated sin.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

If man can continue to rebel eternally, how should we interpret this statement by Paul?

[Josh]

I think it's important, even if we were to take a "universalist" viewpoint to not suppose that God will ever force someone to turn to Him. Free will must be just that: free.

Putting on the universalist hat for a moment, it's reasonable to me that given eternity, everyone will eventually come around to freeing choosing Christ.

Kinda like how they say in science that given enough time, anything that can happen will happen.

[Watchermike]

Free will in itself is an enemy to man. The choice for a lost person to choose heaven could mean to the lost person that God is a control freak. So the lost person decides to go to the "dark side" for his freedom to do what he wants only to reconcile with God in the end. It seems that people who do this use God as an escape goat for a free pass to heaven. So the person goes to heaven without gifts. But I really don't know anybody that with choices given would choose hell. It just doesn't make any sense. A life without God is a very ugly ride but, who am I. I was saved 17 years ago, so maybe I'm speaking experience. Now a days the old addige "experience is your best teacher" kinda loose meaning when all's we had to do in the first place is get saved.

Thank you Jesus!

[Josh]

But I really don't know anybody that with choices given would choose hell.

 I think that many might, in their current state.   John 3:19 may back this up:

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.


I think C.S. Lewis describes well how this could be in his book "The Great Divorce".  Check it out sometime.

[Watchermike]

Well yeah, evil intentions it's pretty much how I explained. It deals with control over ones self or selfishness. but I will check out the book "The Great Divorce". For me it's all about letting God take the lead.

God bless