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Post by Josh on Jan 13, 2012 17:52:35 GMT -8
I'm just glad someone else is reading this thread ;D
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Post by Josh on Jan 14, 2012 9:43:50 GMT -8
Which one?
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shirley
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Post by shirley on Jan 14, 2012 11:34:36 GMT -8
The only thing you forgot which is very critical in interpreting the scripture right is REVELATION. and it takes a childlike faith to be able to receive revelation. ... Children accept everything you tell them, While God might give us individual revelations about our personal life I don't think he is in the market to reveal a Great New Revelation to the Church. I could be wrong, but I will be using my power of discernment before accepting anything New. Hebrews 5: 11-14 is a frustrated warning against apostasy. 11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. It is fine to have a childlike faith but when it comes to the Truth we need to be mature, not children. We don't want to be like children who accept everything we're told.
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shirley
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Post by shirley on Jan 14, 2012 12:29:15 GMT -8
p. 54 "There is no separate, individual you. Christ has replaced you." -This denies the truth that God has created us as unique individuals from one another and paradoxically other than him while yet one with him. I don't know the entire context that Crowder was saying that in, but it sounds like the stuff that Witness Lee taught about once you were saved we now had the same nature as Christ, at least in our spirit and his goal was to spread into our soul and mind and then one great day our body. The problem with this is that if we are an undividable part of God that seems to suggest that God would also be a part of us. I don't remember that being talked about much in the Church but Jack Sparks in The Mindbenders quotes Lee as saying that. This intrinsic union has some other psychological downfalls to the Christian who believes it, but on a theological basis this is wrong because the Scriptures are very clear that the nature of God never changes. Malachi 3:6 I the Lord do not change; James 1:17 ...the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. I'm sure there are more. But the point is we have not been replaced or being replaced. God has redeemed us(1 Peter 1:18, Galatians 3:14) He loves the individual unique us's he has created!
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Post by Josh on Jan 14, 2012 12:33:36 GMT -8
The only thing you forgot which is very critical in interpreting the scripture right is REVELATION. and it takes a childlike faith to be able to receive revelation. ... Children accept everything you tell them, While God might give us individual revelations about our personal life I don't think he is in the market to reveal a Great New Revelation to the Church. I could be wrong, but I will be using my power of discernment before accepting anything New. Hebrews 5: 11-14 is a frustrated warning against apostasy. 11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. It is fine to have a childlike faith but when it comes to the Truth we need to be mature, not children. We don't want to be like children who accept everything we're told. Agreed Shirley. Anyone can claim that their interpretation is based on revelation and others aren't. That's too often been the easy route/ trump card for people who want to claim a "new truth". But fortunately, though the Holy Spirit can enlighten us to the importance of Scripture as it relates to our personal experience, His Word is also not veiled from reason and sound exegesis/ hermeneutics. If the best someone can do to persuade you that they are right about a particular passage of the Bible is "God told me this is the right way to interpret it", then beware.
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Post by Josh on Jan 14, 2012 12:36:12 GMT -8
p. 54 "There is no separate, individual you. Christ has replaced you." -This denies the truth that God has created us as unique individuals from one another and paradoxically other than him while yet one with him. I don't know the entire context that Crowder was saying that in, but it sounds like the stuff that Witness Lee taught about once you were saved we now had the same nature as Christ, at least in our spirit and his goal was to spread into our soul and mind and then one great day our body. The problem with this is that if we are an undividable part of God that seems to suggest that God would also be a part of us. I don't remember that being talked about much in the Church but Jack Sparks in The Mindbenders quotes Lee as saying that. This intrinsic union has some other psychological downfalls to the Christian who believes it, but on a theological basis this is wrong because the Scriptures are very clear that the nature of God never changes. Malachi 3:6 I the Lord do not change; James 1:17 ...the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. I'm sure there are more. But the point is we have not been replaced or being replaced. God has redeemed us(1 Peter 1:18, Galatians 3:14) He loves the individual unique us's he has created! Also agreed. And we will live in relationship with Him for eternity as separate individuals (as he created us) united by the bond of His Holy Spirit. In some senses, we are to be "one" with God and Christ; but not in every sense.
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Post by christopher on Jan 15, 2012 4:52:17 GMT -8
Hi Shirley,
I can totally sympathize with your sensitivities on cult-like behavior. I've seen a fair bit of it as well in groups that want to do your thinking for you and brand anyone a heretic that sees things differently than they do.
Although we like to debate a lot, and question many traditional interpretations (and even entertain some novel ones), we have a pretty low risk of ever becoming a cult for that very reason. One of our core values is freedom of thought and expression (which I will be teaching on in a few weeks). A cult has no chance of getting off the ground if the members refuse to give up that one thing. As long as people LOVE truth and seek it diligently and are free to pursue it, the mind controlling manipulation tactics of a cult leader have very little effect.
This thread is good example of that. There are a some here that agree with Crowder's assertions, and some that do not . I'm personally one that does not agree with Crowder and others of his ilk (in fact, far from it), but I don't feel at all threatened by him because I think the truth will always win out to a thinking person using their God-given discernment tools.
I hope you are able to rest easier knowing that nobody will ever ask you to check your brain at the door.
Lord bless
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shirley
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Post by shirley on Jan 15, 2012 17:35:08 GMT -8
Hi Christopher,
While I was at first frustrated with Carrie and Vio for not seeing the arrogance of Crowder's assertion, I am, now that I have calmed down a bit and said my piece, mostly just angry at Crowder. I am glad to know that Aleithia CF will never ask me to chuck my brain at the door and I am glad we have freedom of opinion and viewpoints. I have however seen when people read a book or hear a sermon with a seemingly novel idea or a claim of Revelation and they choose to embrace it, when they can't find people to agree with them, they leave their church and wander until they find others who do. That is how many people came into the Local Church. I hope Carrie and Vio won't do this. I hope Carrie or Vio will respond soon.
Thanks
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Post by Josh on Jan 15, 2012 18:16:08 GMT -8
My experience with Carrie and Vio is that their passion for Jesus and his kingdom transcends these kind of disagreements. I respect their involvement with a wide swath of the Christian community which is about as non-sectarian as you can get. I think it's good for all of us to express our concern about certain viewpoints/ doctrines/ interpretations of Scripture, all the while speaking the truth in love. And as you get to know them, I'm sure that you'll see that they're a good blend of thick enough skin to hold their own viewpoint in tension with others views and enough sensitivity to prioritize the most important bonds between us as believers. But they can say that for themselves too
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 17, 2012 18:18:45 GMT -8
Shirley, Sorry for not responding faster. I like the fact that you want stand up for your views. I also like the fact that you are willing to defend the church from any Cult like individuals. I am sorry that you had to go through that Cult experience. Your feelings are valid. I am sorry you feel mad. We didn’t think that everything that he is speaking is gold. I actually told Josh about some of those wrong assertions. He has a shocking language style and sometimes it shocks people. And sometimes to make a point it stretches the meaning of the conventional church language. I don’t have to defend everything he is saying. I am totally fine with your disagreement.
As you said, he has some very good points and we are taking what we think is good from his message. I am not going to reject a book because of its cover and I am not going to take everything is put in my mouth either. There is a balance. I also hope that we are allowed to check our brain out of the door too. The first sign of a cult is when someone is not open to hear another and thinks he knows it all .
I didn’t know mentioning ''faith like a child’’ awaken so many assumptions about what we may mean by that.
I am sure that you are not getting mad every time someone seems to do something wrong. We feel that we can take it down a notch and still make our point.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 20, 2012 11:54:57 GMT -8
Chris wrote:
Sorry Chris, I forgot I wanted clarification on this quote. What were you implying here? I don't think you were implying that those who agree with some of Crowder's views are not 'thinking people using their God-given discernment tools', right? You weren't implying that were you? Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by christopher on Jan 20, 2012 22:01:19 GMT -8
Oh man....he's on to me No, Vio that is certainly not what I'm implying. I think you answered you're own question in you're previous post. You agree with some of what Crowder says, but not all. We all agree with some of what Crowder teaches by virtue of being Christians. We all have our favorite teachers, but usually we disagree with something they assert. Like one of my favorite teachers likes to say: "if any two Christians believe all the same things exactly, it only means one of them is not thinking, and you have the beginning of a cult" And just because someone agrees with a teacher one day, doesn't mean they always will. The very fact that our views change over time through further discovery demonstrates that we are thinkers using our God-given discernment skills. Thus we need not worry too much about erroneous teaching as long as we have freedom of thought and expression because the truth will eventually prevail.
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shirley
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Post by shirley on Jan 21, 2012 23:21:08 GMT -8
I wanted to apologize to readers about my post on January 13th. I suspect I violated the “commit to respectful dialogue” clause. I cannot respectfully disagree with Crowder. I passionately disagree with his arrogance. But next time I will be more respectful to the commentators. I meant no offense.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 22, 2012 13:22:30 GMT -8
I love that Crowder helps people see that they were crucified with Christ on the cross I was just thinking of that.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 22, 2012 13:23:09 GMT -8
Shirley, no worries. We hope our posts weren't taken the wrong way either. Have a great day!
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