Those who died before Jesus? Being born again?

[Sandy Pines]

Where did people go after dying before the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Did they still go to Heaven/Hell even though Jesus hadn't paid the debt for all their sins yet?

Also I'm a bit confused on something. The Bible says that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Often I also hear that once you call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness for your sins that you will be saved and will be able to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Which is true? And also, if you must be Born Again to enter Heaven, what does that totally mean? And isn't that basically saying that you must do good works after recieving Christ as your savior to enter the kingdom of Heaven? I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but if if I must be born again..then if I died tomorrow I may not be going to Heaven. I'm still going through some struggles....I'm getting into old sins and some sins I never totally repented from.

Ask if you were confused about my question.

[christopher]

Sandy,

Great questions! Keep wrestling, you'll find that God won't let this stumble you for long.

I wish I had the time to write more about this, but I'll try to get back on later and share my thoughts. Maybe Josh has a word or two in the meantime.

[rbbailey]

These are very good questions. How long have you been a Christian?

Dec 13, 2009 19:33:04 GMT -8 Sandy Pines said:

Where did people go after dying before the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Did they still go to Heaven/Hell even though Jesus hadn't paid the debt for all their sins yet?

I don't know the answer to this. I don't think anyone really does. But there are a few things to know -- the Bible specifically says that people did go to be in the presence of God after they died, even if they lived before Jesus. There are several ways to look at this, but I think it is important to drop the idea of going to a certain place -- it isn't important. All that is important is knowing that we are talking about eternity in the presence of God vs. isolated, away from God.

What did Jesus do? Yes, he forgave our sins... but wasn't Jesus God, and hasn't God forgiven sins before hand? Isn't the old testament full of God's wrath contrasted with God's forgiving nature? I think God in the Old Testament has to be viewed (simplistically) as the judge who throws the book at people, but also is very forgiving and simply lets some people off -- it's based on the circumstance at hand. The fact that a person was a Jew and that they worked hard to be in line with God certainly played a big part in this process.

But really, Jesus must have done more than simply forgive when he died on the cross. Jesus provided the fix for the human condition of imperfection. God did, does, always did have the power to forgive those who asked for it and worked for it, but Jesus fixed the base problem.

After Jesus, God takes on more of the role of the judge who is looking at every case before him as being either paid for already, or not.

Again, this is simplistic, but it gets you into the right place for thinking about it fully.

Also I'm a bit confused on something. The Bible says that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Often I also hear that once you call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness for your sins that you will be saved and will be able to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Which is true?

Your confusion here is simply that you are confused. Unless I'm totally wrong, there really is no difference. Born again and calling on Jesus to allow him to do his work in your life are one in the same, just different terms.

The term to be "born again" is more of a metaphor. It is also manifest in the act of being baptized -- a symbol to say that you are a Christian, you are born again, you have come up from a life of death.

As far as whether you are saved or not when you call on Jesus, that's between you and Him. I believe people are saved once, that's it. But I also know for a fact that salvation is a process. There is a POINT in time when you are SAVED but you will spend the rest of eternity learning and becoming more and more like Christ.

...isn't that basically saying that you must do good works after recieving Christ as your savior to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

No. Good works are a result of being saved, not a prerequisite of being saved.

I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but if if I must be born again..then if I died tomorrow I may not be going to Heaven. I'm still going through some struggles....I'm getting into old sins and some sins I never totally repented from.

If you have accepted Jesus as your savior, he will save you, he already has, your soul is in his hands. Life is not easy, it will be a struggle, and you will stumble and you will get back into old sins, but you will also be saved. The problem you face is not whether you are saved, the problem you face is whether you can fully realize the joy of that salvation by avoiding the pitfalls of the old self.

Allow God to bury your old self. Allow Jesus to take your old self and nail it with him on the cross. Allow him to take it into the grave with him. Let him burn in hell for you -- as he has already done -- then remember that unlike what you would have been able to do, he came back. He was born again, he visited hell on your behalf, and he carries your old self with him the whole way, all the way back to life. You have been born again because Christ was born again.

This is what you asked him to do for you when you called upon him, and he did it. The debt was paid, the check written, all you had to do was pick it up and cash it.

Your response now is to avoid the sins he already saved you from as you live out the rest of this life. It's at once impossible and possible at the same time. Your response now is to thank him by telling others about him. In other words, by telling others about him and doing the good works, you are essentially saying you don't want his sacrifice to go to waste.

I hope this helps.

[Josh]

I like what rbbailey said about about those who have died but have not yet received their resurrection bodies; that it's not so much about where they are, but who they are with (or aren't with).

I don't think spirits (or souls, depending on the terminology you use) have the same kind of "whereness" bodies have. When we are all resurrected at the last day we will then have our "whereness" restored.

Did they still go to Heaven/Hell even though Jesus hadn't paid the debt for all their sins yet?

I think I might see this one a bit differently than rbbailey. In fact, this came up in our church meeting today at Aletheia.

I believe that every time God has ever forgiven anyone it has been because of the sacrifice of His son- regardless of whether that forgiveness took place before or after Jesus' crucifixion.

I think there is some scriptural support for this notion, such as Revelation 13:8, which says:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

The fact that Jesus is said to have been slain from before or during the creation of the world seems to indicate that His sacrifice is timeless in some way- in some way it has always been in effect.

I think that God cannot forgive sins with, as it were, a snap of the fingers, because that would not satisfy His justice. But in light of His Son's sacrifice, all sins can be forgiven and mercy and justice are both appeased.

But this is a question that has been debated by many a great Christian mind, with various perspectives.


As to the born again/ calling on the name of the Lord thing....

I'm fundamentally in agreement with rbbailey there too. They are one and the same and being born again is not a work, it is something God does in you as you open up your heart to Him.

Further thoughts?

[rbbailey]

As far as the more technical aspects of what Josh is talking about: I think he is trying to say what I was thinking, but not really saying. My analogy is about getting at the different ways God's covenants with man play out. When I say God forgave people as the judge, I do think he was applying the same rules, just on a different time frame. Or, maybe it comes down to the idea that those who "got it" understood that God would, in the future, send Jesus, and so they had accepted Jesus' sacrifice knowing that it would happen -- which fits very well with all the Old Testament prophecies, and with the beliefs of Judaism as a whole -- they had been expecting, and still are expecting the Messiah.

But I also believe in the sort of metaphysical way that Jesus' sacrifice, though it happened in a certain point in time to for us humans; was for today, yesterday, and forever -- even before it happened, if you get my drift.

But all of this is beside the point that you must come to a point in your life where you are comfortable with the grace of Jesus Christ. Your questioning is how faith is strengthened, it is not a weakness unless you allow it to be. When all else fades away, Jesus and his Grace will be all that remains of any and all theological busy-talk. Focus on that.

[Josh]

Amen.

God most definitely does not desire that you live in fear about these abstractions. If you've turned to Him, He will not cast you out due to technicalities.

[Sandy Pines]

These are very good questions. How long have you been a Christian?

I've been raised in a Christian household all my life, but I truly accepted Christ in about 7th grade. (so about 3 years).

I don't know the answer to this. I don't think anyone really does. But there are a few things to know -- the Bible specifically says that people did go to be in the presence of God after they died, even if they lived before Jesus. There are several ways to look at this, but I think it is important to drop the idea of going to a certain place -- it isn't important. All that is important is knowing that we are talking about eternity in the presence of God vs. isolated, away from God.

What did Jesus do? Yes, he forgave our sins... but wasn't Jesus God, and hasn't God forgiven sins before hand? Isn't the old testament full of God's wrath contrasted with God's forgiving nature? I think God in the Old Testament has to be viewed (simplistically) as the judge who throws the book at people, but also is very forgiving and simply lets some people off -- it's based on the circumstance at hand. The fact that a person was a Jew and that they worked hard to be in line with God certainly played a big part in this process.

But really, Jesus must have done more than simply forgive when he died on the cross. Jesus provided the fix for the human condition of imperfection. God did, does, always did have the power to forgive those who asked for it and worked for it, but Jesus fixed the base problem.

After Jesus, God takes on more of the role of the judge who is looking at every case before him as being either paid for already, or not.

Again, this is simplistic, but it gets you into the right place for thinking about it fully.

Very good point.

Your confusion here is simply that you are confused. Unless I'm totally wrong, there really is no difference. Born again and calling on Jesus to allow him to do his work in your life are one in the same, just different terms.

The term to be "born again" is more of a metaphor. It is also manifest in the act of being baptized -- a symbol to say that you are a Christian, you are born again, you have come up from a life of death.

As far as whether you are saved or not when you call on Jesus, that's between you and Him. I believe people are saved once, that's it. But I also know for a fact that salvation is a process. There is a POINT in time when you are SAVED but you will spend the rest of eternity learning and becoming more and more like Christ.

I was confused of the meaning "Born again". I always thought that "born again" means that you were totally repented from your past sins and have no intentions of going back.

No. Good works are a result of being saved, not a prerequisite of being saved.

I see.

God most definitely does not desire that you live in fear about these abstractions. If you've turned to Him, He will not cast you out due to technicalities.

Okay, awesome. Thanks for the replies all it helped a ton.

[rbbailey]

Jesus existed before he came to us in the form of a babe in Bethlehem.

Many people think it was Jesus who visited Abram in the desert.

There was no "before" Jesus, only a time before he paid the bill.

When you go to eat a dinner out, you sit down and have dinner first, then you pay the bill.

[Josh]

Dec 16, 2009 22:41:50 GMT -8 rbbailey said:

Jesus existed before he came to us in the form of a babe in Bethlehem.

Many people think it was Jesus who visited Abram in the desert.

I agree and think that many of the "theopanies" (physcial appearances of God) in the OT are actually Christophanies. I"ve written about this somewhere else on the forums- can't remember off hand.

There was no "before" Jesus, only a time before he paid the bill.

When you go to eat a dinner out, you sit down and have dinner first, then you pay the bill.

One could argue that in some sense* the bill has always been paid:

Rev. 13:8b

...the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

*perhaps in the sense of God's transendance to time itself

[yeshuafreak]

With all the messages of love that Jesus gives. do you really think that God would send someone to hell if they had no idea about Jesus.

There are scriptures and philosophical arguments I can make with this, but I find no need to. Listen to your first instinct which I am sure is repulsed at the idea that God would send uninformed people to hell, or people to hell that couldnt help that Jesus hadnt come yet.

shalom

[yeshuafreak]

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

did not your man augustine say that when God created the world he created the beg, middle, and end and that the act of creation is always playing itself out as set up from the beg? Would this not tie into this statement and prove your point further?

shalom