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Post by Kirby on Sept 6, 2011 13:14:30 GMT -8
I would very much like to discuss this film, Kevin Smith's latest (and greatest, IMO). Has anyone seen it?
Unlike any of the "stoner comedies" Smith has done in the past, Red State centers around a small town that includes a Westboro Baptist-like congregation of extremists. The ATF arrives and surrounds the compound.
It's a compelling story, and deals with tough questions not only about faith and extremism, but also about the government's role in reacting to these things.
Not too often does a movie stick with me like this.
So you know, it contains GRAPHIC violence (although I've seen much worse!) and extreme, vulgar language. It is a HARD "R".
Currently only available via VOD on Comcast, otherwise you will have to wait for the DVD. Not released widely in theaters.
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Post by robin on Sept 7, 2011 8:52:03 GMT -8
I haven't seen it yet but I have watched the trailers. I do want to see the movie, but I'm curious to know why it stuck with you?
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Post by Kirby on Sept 7, 2011 9:00:44 GMT -8
It stuck with me largely because of the "non-message", if you follow me. It leaves the viewer with unanswered questions, rather than be preachy (which it very easily could have been).
I don't want to spoil it.
Also, the intense subject matter, coupled with the great acting just made it stick. Not many films do that.
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Post by robin on Sept 7, 2011 16:00:36 GMT -8
Kirby, Why do you think Kevin Smith chose Christianity as the villain? Why pick on Christians? No rational person can truly think that there are Christian fundamentalists out there that pose a risk like the one seemingly portrayed in the movie. History would show that Christians have much more to fear from secularists and atheists than the other way around, don't you think? Doesn't this kind of film feed irrational fears? I intend on seeing the movie but I must admit that from viewing the trailers I'm left with a feeling that uninformed viewers may come away with a more negative view of Christians.
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Post by Josh on Sept 7, 2011 19:59:38 GMT -8
Probably won't have the chance anytime soon if this is the case, but you guys are piquing my curiosity.
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Post by Kirby on Sept 8, 2011 11:13:41 GMT -8
Maybe so. I'm not sure I agree with you on the "no rational person..." line of thinking though. There have been plenty of "Christian" extremists, neo-nazi groups in Idaho come to mind. Remember that one the ATF raided in the 90s, and shot the 14 year old boy?
Smith even differentiates his fictional congregation from real groups (such as Westboro Baptist) with a direct quote: (paraphrased) "The Fred Phelps group is annoying, but they don't have guns and they respect the law..." I got the impression that the focus is more on anti-social behavior rather than Christianity.
Yes, of course the uninformed could be given the wrong idea, but isn't that true of ANY media?
Honestly, lets revisit this after you've seen the movie.
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Post by robin on Sept 9, 2011 7:12:05 GMT -8
Sorry, I'm not aware of any Christian Neo-Nazis in Idaho. Nor do I remember the ATF situation that you referred to. What were these Nazi Christians doing?
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Post by Kirby on Sept 9, 2011 8:52:25 GMT -8
They called themselves Christians...Which is why I put quotes around "Christian". They even have a church, sunday school, etc. On the outside, they look just like any other non-mainstream congregation. Check out the wiki for Aryan Nations: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations They claim to be part of the "Church of Jesus Christ-Christian" I can't find a link describing the 1990's incident I describe, but it is covered in the great documentary "Nazis in America" which is shown on the History Channel every once in awhile. (the documentary also has interviews with various "pastors" within the "Christian" Neo-Nazi movement. What were the Nazi Christians doing? Well, what you would expect neo-nazis to do? They harassed locals, (specifically non-white, Jewish locals) and stockpiled weapons. Are you really unaware of these things? Or are you being sarcastic? Not all are blessed to be as rational as you are, Robin.
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Post by Josh on Sept 10, 2011 10:23:39 GMT -8
Don't forget, Robin, that your ancestors were violent "Christians" Mountain Meadows Massacre
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Post by robin on Sept 12, 2011 7:07:47 GMT -8
Kirby, Simple question for you. Are they Christians or not?
Josh, You know that I never considered John D. Lee or the LDS to to be part of the church.
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Post by Kirby on Sept 12, 2011 9:01:21 GMT -8
It's a slippery slope I think for me to call some Christians and others not, but I would not think they are Christians, and as you said above, no rational person would (about the Nazis or the crazies in Red State). Smith does not paint Christians as the villain, but rather these crazies claiming to be Christians. Maybe I don't understand your question? Will the "uninformed" think less of Christians after watching Red State? Maybe. Is it some kind of threat to Christians? No. Does it feed irrational fears? I guess in the same way that uninformed people are afraid of zombies, vampires, and pirates I suppose.
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Post by robin on Sept 12, 2011 13:03:10 GMT -8
I don't know anyone over 10 years old who actually fear zombies, and vampires. Fearing Pirates seems to be a rational fear especially for those traveling or working around the African coast line.
A person claiming to be a Christian means nothing unless their claims are backed up by their actions. If I claimed to be a brain surgeon and attempted to perform brain surgery, and kill the patient, would it be rational to fear actual brain surgeons who have the credentials? Of course not.
Given the fact that the church has been one of the greatest forces for good that the world has ever seen, it seems unfair to feed this irrational fear of the Church. Given the fact that atheists like Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Hitler killed nearly 25 million people in the last century, Wouldn't it be fair to say that the real danger is not religion, but rather in those who have no religion (the real Nazis)?
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Post by Josh on Sept 12, 2011 18:16:29 GMT -8
Josh, You know that I never considered John D. Lee or the LDS to to be part of the church. I was just teasing you. However, it's kind of the point Kirby is making, right? That there are many groups who consider themselves Christian, which conclusion we might dispute.
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Post by robin on Sept 22, 2011 12:56:28 GMT -8
I watched the movie yesterday. Nothing too different from what I expected. However, I wonder what the reaction would have been if Kevin Smith decided that instead of the terrorists being Christians, he had decided to have Muslim terrorists chopping off the heads of non-Muslims? Lets face it, this actually happens. I'm guessing that Smith (like so many others in the media) fears the potential violent backlash not to mention the ending of his career. By choosing Christians he's able to attack people of faith without any fear of backlash, despite the fact that Muslims would be more likely to be involved in these kinds of crimes. I would be interested in seeing any kind of evidence that Christians are involved in violence that even comes close to what was portrayed in the movie.
Smith seemed to have a message that he wanted to get across, as evidence the characters in the movie sighted actual statistics as part of their dialog. This seems to indicate that Smith wanted to viewers to see this movie as having some credible standing in reality.
It's also important to point out that there was not a Christian alternative presented in the movie. The only Christians presented in the movie were violent extremists.
There was a message that I do find myself sympathetic towards. The message that he police state has far too much power is one that I tend to agree with.
Overall it was an entertaining movie and I would recommend if for adults.
Josh,
Even among those there's rarely an incident that rises to the level of what was seen in this movie. You had to reach back in history some 130+ years to produce so called Christians using their faith as an excuse to kill innocent people.
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Post by Kirby on Sept 23, 2011 6:51:20 GMT -8
You make valid points, Robin, especially making the Muslim comparison. You just make it seem that Smith had some sort of agenda, rather than telling a story. I also don't see the necessity for a "Christian alternative." Are you still afraid that the extremists in the film will be perceived by viewers as what Christians are like? I don't think so. A classic formula for storytelling is to have the villain and the hero be contrasts, not necessarily an "anti-villain" as you seem to suggest. The uninformed are going to have silly reactions to anything, I don't think they pose any sort of threat, nor does painting Christians as villains pose any threat.
That was the most surprising element of the film, IMO. I did not expect that message.
I also liked seeing Lady Aberlin from Mr. Rogers wielding an AK-47! ;D
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Post by Kirby on Sept 23, 2011 7:38:01 GMT -8
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Post by robin on Sept 23, 2011 12:45:28 GMT -8
Great article. Thanks for sharing.
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