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Post by Josh on Aug 8, 2010 17:50:53 GMT -8
Are Christians too concerned about "getting people saved"?
In your opinion, what makes Christian evangelism inauthentic or disingenuous?
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Post by carebear on Aug 8, 2010 21:33:43 GMT -8
Where is this question springing from?
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Post by Josh on Aug 9, 2010 7:03:01 GMT -8
The next topic (in Sept) will be "Get Saved!"- the perception that Christians are perceived as disingenuous in their friendships with outsiders and are only concerned about "getting people saved".
As all of the topics, I'm sure it'll generate some good debate and discussion.
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Post by robin on Aug 9, 2010 7:12:37 GMT -8
I don't know if it's a fair question. It may be fine to question the methods used in evangelism, but in order to label someone as disingenuous you would need to question their motives. I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt if they are attempting to evangelize, even if I think their methods are harmful.
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Post by Josh on Aug 9, 2010 8:16:50 GMT -8
Well, you can look at it a couple different ways: 1) what gives you the suspicion that things might be disingenuous? 2) what has been disingenuous in your own attempts to "share your faith" or 3) what personal experiences did you have of someone trying to "proselytize" you that you felt were inauthentic?
Remember, this whole study and research is about the power of perception.
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Post by Josh on Aug 9, 2010 8:39:27 GMT -8
Let me give you my two cents: I think it's disingenuous to make salvation the sole objective of your interactions with "outsiders". Love (and friendship) should be the first objective and it should be non-negotiable no matter what the person's response to your "evangelism".
The minute people perceive that we are just trying to get them to join a club rather than trying to initiate a genuine friendship, we've often already lost them.
I have a lot more respect for people of other viewpoints who don't make changing my mind the sole basis for their interactions with me. And I'm more likely to actually listen to them if I feel that friendship is the bottom line, not conversion.
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Post by Josh on Aug 25, 2010 8:49:46 GMT -8
More thoughts on this? This is going to be the topic of my next teaching I think.
Also, Robin, the focus is not on saying "so and so is a disingenuous evangelist". The focus is on the evangelism itself not the evangelist.
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Post by robin on Aug 25, 2010 13:12:41 GMT -8
Disingenuousness (if that is a word) seems to be a human trait if anything. I can't see how you and disconnect the two, but perhaps your teaching will enlighten me.
The way I see it evangelism can only be disingenuous when the person evangelizing does not completely and genuinely believe what they are saying. I'm not say that those people don't exist, but we may want to be careful about applying such a negative label to people who's hearts are in the right place but employ tactics that we see as not helpful.
I also think that we have to recognize that many Christians came to faith in Jesus through evangelistic methods that we may view as harmful in general, like what you would hear on "The Way of the Master" radio program.
This is an interesting topic and I look forward to your teaching on the subject.
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Post by christopher on Aug 28, 2010 9:46:42 GMT -8
Try this on. What immediately comes to mind when someone says to you: "Hey, I'm looking at this business opportunity, and I'd like to get your opinion on it. Would you mind watching this 30 minute video and tell me what you think?
For me, I automatically think of multi-level marketing schemes, because I've experienced this tactic. Or how about when someone calls your phone and says you've just won something, and all you got to do is come down and claim your prize? You know you'll be sitting in a room for 4 hours getting pressured into buying a time share or something. There's always some ulterior motive that makes you feel manipulated. Likewise, when Christians approach strangers with pamphlets or use certain learned "techniques", or even attempt to befriend someone with the idea of "getting them saved", today's cynical and astute generation see right through it and it can become a road block for future consideration of Christianity as genuine and real. My personal experience before I was a believer was that when people have approached me with the intent of sharing the gospel, I've associated them with annoying salespeople and tuned them out. I wasn't going to be another notch in someone belt. But when the gospel was shared with me as a natural turn in a genuine conversation with someone I believed cared about me and my opinion, I was more likely to give the matter more consideration. This happened several times before I ever came to believe, and I think my love for those people made a difference. I'm not saying these evangelism "techniques" have no success rate, they obviously do. But at what cost? Are we alienating the many to save a few? The greatest evangelists, in my opinion, weren't pedaling the gospel with learned techniques, they were proclaiming the kingdom of God out of an uncontrollable conviction in a way that was relevant to the time and culture of their day. I see Paul becoming "all things to all people", preaching in synagogues one way, and Mars Hill another. Peter visiting a gentile in his home, Philip evangelizing the Ethiopian Eunuch, etc. were all examples of people be compelled by the Spirit to proclaim the gospel in a unique way. As soon as we begin to capture successful evangelistic efforts into a duplicatable methodology, we institutionalize and cheapen the work of the Spirit IMO. And it has consequences. It feeds the growing perception that all Evangelical Christians are interested in is earthly empire building.* People aren't dumb, it's usually pretty easy to detect a manipulation tactic. But thankfully, acts of genuine and unconditional love are also detectable and a lot more winsome. * It's true we are interested in Empire building, but of another sort than what is perceived by most.
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Post by christopher on Aug 28, 2010 9:47:54 GMT -8
By the way Josh, I believe "Lord, save us from your followers" has a segment on this as well, if I'm not mistaken. It might be a good clip to show tomorrow if you can find it.
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Post by moritz on Aug 29, 2010 23:27:47 GMT -8
Hey Josh, as you requested, here are my two cents. the perception that Christians are perceived as disingenuous in their friendships with outsiders and are only concerned about "getting people saved". I don't perceive Christians as more or less disingenuous in their friendship than other people. Wanting to save someones soul is at least a better reason to get involved with someone than - say - wanting to profit from this persons wealth or position etc. I think that the terms "Christian" and "friendship" need a more accurate definition here. We use to call many people "friend" but what does that mean? Friend like "facebook-friend"? Or friend like "best friend"? I like to believe that one cannot become someone's "real" friend without truely caring about that person. And Christian? The range of different attitudes behind this term allows no generalization. I think I don't quite see the problem. Maybe its a cultural thing: European Christians are not very aggressive missionaries, I believe. It seems the majority of them doesn't engage much in conversion. The only people who ring on my door every once in a while are Jehova's Witnesses... (and they tell you without hidden agenda what they want to sell you). ;D As for the American Christian who is trying to save my soul (I'm talking about you, Josh ): You never made bones about your intention to convince me of Christianity. So I wouldn't label you disingenuous either.
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Post by Josh on Aug 31, 2010 16:20:43 GMT -8
Thanks guys. I still have 2 weeks before I teach on this, and I haven't even picked up the chapter to review it yet. My memory of it is fairly vague, so the question may be slightly off topic any way, but this is all very helpful discussion.
I'm glad to hear what Moritz said and I also wonder if people agree with Chris's statement above:
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Post by Josh on Sept 7, 2010 16:18:20 GMT -8
Here is the Perception vs. the desired Perception for this topic:
Perception:
Christians are insincere and concerned only with converting others
New Perception:
Christians cultivate relationships and environments where others can be deeply transformed by God
Thoughts?
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Post by rbbailey on Sept 7, 2010 17:12:48 GMT -8
I got into a friendly contest with a sort of friend once...
Oh, yeah, well I've been to three foreign countries.
Oh, yeah, well I've seen a movie star.
Oh, yeah, well I got to go on a yacht.
Oh, yeah, well how many people have you lead to Christ?
Now, under normal circumstances it would be a great conversation to discuss the people you've shared Christ with, etc... etc... But it really hit me in a bad way when she said it, because she was serious. She really did want to compare numbers. It left an impression on me.
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Post by Josh on Sept 7, 2010 20:15:16 GMT -8
This chapter tackles what the authors consider to be Christian myths/ misconceptions such as:
1. "The best evangelism efforts are those that reach the most people at once"
2. "Anything that brings people to Christ is worth doing"
3. "We cannot worry about the possibility of offending people when sharing the truth about Jesus"
They then give data and evidence against these propositions and attempt to replace them with a more realistic analysis of Christian evangelistic efforts.
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Post by Josh on Sept 10, 2010 19:42:09 GMT -8
I got into a friendly contest with a sort of friend once... Oh, yeah, well I've been to three foreign countries. Oh, yeah, well I've seen a movie star. Oh, yeah, well I got to go on a yacht. Oh, yeah, well how many people have you lead to Christ? Now, under normal circumstances it would be a great conversation to discuss the people you've shared Christ with, etc... etc... But it really hit me in a bad way when she said it, because she was serious. She really did want to compare numbers. It left an impression on me. BTW, Ben, yeah, this kind of thinking makes me nervous.
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Post by Josh on Sept 13, 2010 19:42:51 GMT -8
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