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Post by Josh on Apr 23, 2010 17:46:18 GMT -8
How so? I don't expect you to betray any confidences, so I understand if you can't share further, but I guess I have a couple of questions. Was it damaging because of guilt? That is, the person was so guilty about it that their mental well-being was in question? Did it destroy or damage relationships? I don't ask these questions to further debate, but because I am genuinely curious. The gay people I know have not included me in their struggle, if they are indeed struggling with it. yeah, I don't think I should really go into it much. Guilt/shame was one of the ways it was damaging, which of course could be seen by a skeptic as circular reasoning. But more what I'm talking about is a personal conclusion that those desires were alienating them from themselves and pushing them further into reckless behavior- as well as those people making connections between their "orientation" and childhood trauma.
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Post by carebear on Apr 23, 2010 23:04:24 GMT -8
I mean God is a big powerful God and even though we will have temptations and struggles, He is faithful to bring us through and give us peace amidst it. He will show us right from wrong. If we truly look to Him and follow Him, we should be ok.
So I'm thinking all humans have issues and struggles and are imperfect and I see homosexuality as any other sin people struggle with. The key is to seek after God truly, no matter who we are, and if we do that, we will find Him and He will guide us and help heal us and that's the focus.
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Post by Josh on Apr 24, 2010 7:07:37 GMT -8
much agreed!
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Post by christopher on Apr 24, 2010 13:32:41 GMT -8
Kirby wrote:
So, I noticed you capitalized "Word" here. I don't know if you're referring to the scripture or God (read: Jesus in the beginning).
But are you saying that you believe that God learns, refines His understanding, and changes His moral opinions over time? Or are you saying that you believe the scriptures are not inspired by God and therefore don't necessarily contain His opinions/commands/instruction?
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Post by Kirby on Jul 1, 2010 9:27:37 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Jul 1, 2010 9:57:03 GMT -8
I'm glad you resurrected this thread. Chris is teaching on this subject July 18th.
I read the article and have some thoughts. But I'm curious for other people's responses before I jump in.
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Post by Kirby on Jul 1, 2010 10:57:10 GMT -8
Christopher wrote:
I am saying neither. Lets go back to Speech 101: Communication requires a sender and a reciever. In this case, the sender (God) does not change, but the receiver (us) does. That said, our understanding and interpretation, due in large part to adapting to technological and cultural shifts (social evolution) grows, and we become more able to understand the message. We are able to view it through different lenses, as well as all the lenses mankind has viewed it in the past, allowing us to compare and contrast and make new decisions. I'll use slavery as an example. Slavery was culturally acceptable in the Bible, but I doubt any of us would consider owning another human being now. Why should our views shift about some things and not others? How can we claim to be progressive about slavery, race relations, polygamy (due in large part to the influence of the culture we live in) but not about other cultural phenomena (such as homosexuality)?
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Post by Josh on Jul 1, 2010 11:05:46 GMT -8
Just a side-note. You brought up slavery in the bible, and I just wanted to point anyone interested to a thread on that topic: Servitude/ Slavery in the OT
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Post by Josh on Jul 3, 2010 20:07:16 GMT -8
Ok.
I think it's powerful to recognize the hurt and pain caused by unloving and hypocritical judgment from some in the Christian community. And the responses of the people described in the article demonstrate that.
However, I'm not a big fan of "events" like this. I think a one-on-one conversation in a pub with a friend can accomplish a whole lot more.
People in the response column were celebrating that this was what Jesus would do, but I don't think so. Jesus liked the one-on-one approach and Jesus always mixed his love with moral imperatives. He didn't just say, "hey- I love you", he snuggled up close to people and then told them parables and taught them things that convicted them of their sin and made them want to run into the arms of a loving God. I think that's the best thing we can do.
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Post by Kirby on Jul 4, 2010 8:05:26 GMT -8
Yeah, I see your point Josh.
Some may see this kind of display as self-serving..."Look, everyone, I'm one of the "cool" Christians."
I like what the guy did in "Lord, Save Us from Your Followers". (Did you see that?) He set up a "Confessional Booth" at a Pride Event, and when people came in, he was the one doing the confessing. A little gimmicky, but more intimate and closer to what you are describing.
However, we are talking about the perceptions of Christians. I'll bet the people who experienced the sign holders at that Pride parade have had their perceptions of Christians changed a little bit due to the act of humility on the part of the brothers and sisters who participated. Maybe it wasn't the best way to do it, but it helped, and maybe opened the door for the one-on-one conversations you are prescribing. I HOPE that they did not cast seed on rocky ground, and end the relationship with one hug at a parade.
It is acts like these, though, that work to heal the (mis)perceptions that outsiders hold about Christians. If Christianity in NOT homophobic, then public statements like this communicate clearly to outsiders. However, if only the stories of the homosexuals who have been mistreated by Christians are reported, than the perceptions will remain the Christians are homophobic.
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Post by Josh on Jul 4, 2010 17:08:49 GMT -8
I like this post and agree It is acts like these, though, that work to heal the (mis)perceptions that outsiders hold about Christians. If Christianity in NOT homophobic, then public statements like this communicate clearly to outsiders. However, if only the stories of the homosexuals who have been mistreated by Christians are reported, than the perceptions will remain the Christians are homophobic. I'd add that if enough Christians were acting Christlike in their day-to-day interactions with those who identify themselves as homosexuals, then no one would even think twice out all the "god-hates-fags" blowhards.
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Post by Josh on Jul 4, 2010 17:14:21 GMT -8
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Post by christopher on Jul 5, 2010 8:44:39 GMT -8
Hi Kirby,
I loved that article. Thanks for posting it. I think I'll use the underwear guy story in my upcoming discussion. I hope you consider joining us for that one.
I also love what you wrote here:
I tend to agree with you that it is an appropriate gesture for people in the church to make in light of past (and current) bad behavior of some Christ followers.
BTW, I did see "Lord, save us from your followers" on Netflix about a month ago. I really liked it and it goes along with what we're studying. It's refreshing to know that this Christian "awakening" (if you will) may be wider spread and more contagious than we know.
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Post by christopher on Jul 5, 2010 9:08:19 GMT -8
Kirby,
you wrote:
I would agree with you on many things we interpret in the bible. Seeing things both through the lenses of the current culture, as well as the culture and time it was written in is indeed useful in determining application. But, I also think there are certain things in the word that use such clear and strong language, that they don't leave much room for those kinds of errors and misunderstandings. And that's kind of at the heart of this debate. The lenses one sees those key passages through will tend to bias their interpretation a great deal, I dare say.
The difference though, is that slavery, polygamy, and even interracial relations are never said to matters of morality in scripture whereas homosexuality is.
We may now find it repugnant to own another human being, but that's a matter of our social conditioning (and I would agree that it's progressive conditioning is a positive thing). But I can't say there is anyting inherently immoral about "owning" another human*, only how that human is treated.
*By the way, I don't think "own" is an accurate word for slavery. I don't believe any human being is even capable of "owning" another human, or even owning himself for that matter. As created beings, we are all owned by our creator. One may steward another, but not "own". I also think that arrangement is still present in many widely accepted relationships called by another name than slavery.
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Post by Josh on Jul 5, 2010 20:30:59 GMT -8
I'd like to watch "Lord, save us from your followers" sometime soon as well.
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2010 16:25:05 GMT -8
Here's a song from the band "Five Iron Frenzy" several years back that I've always liked. I think it fits in with this topic nicely. It's all about his changing opinions on Freddie Mercury while growing up Flash Gordon soundtrack, I was in second grade. My first real record, yeah, worn down it played and played. Young and blind, my double mind.
When the world was black and white, watch me turn my back tonight, on Freddie Mercury, Mr. Fahrenheit.
I was in eighth grade, I said he was a queer, I thought he had it coming, he died of Aids that year. My liberty, like Christ's death meant nothing to me.
When the world was black and white, watch me turn my back tonight, on Freddie Mercury, Mr. Fahrenheit.
When my veins choked thick with spite, blind man's bluff burns in hindsight, for Freddie Mercury, Mr. Fahrenheit.
Predisposed to bigotry, the regular run-of-the-mill American story. The stench of greasepaint on our faces, pass the mask to our next of kin, instead of wiser idioms, like "love the sinner, hate the sin".
I'm sorry, I'm sorry So sorry So sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry
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Post by Josh on Jul 18, 2010 18:32:45 GMT -8
So, Chris, what'd ya do for the lesson today?
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