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Post by freebirdro on Dec 24, 2010 22:09:54 GMT -8
On another thread Carrie posted a video in which someone happened to mention the view that the Twilight books are "demonic". What do you all think?
twilight demonic? Does it have any elements in it that encourage young people to make any kinds of pacts or treaties with a negative entity ? Or worship some kind of behavior that leads to joining vampire culture and all the bells that come with that/? Is it with God or against God? or neutral?
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Post by Josh on Dec 24, 2010 23:41:16 GMT -8
twilight demonic? Does it have any elements in it that encourage young people to make any kinds of pacts or treaties with a negative entity ? Or worship some kind of behavior that leads to joining vampire culture and all the bells that come with that? Is it with God or against God? or neutral? I haven't read the books- only seen the first three movies, but I think most people who are against them don't actually know anything firsthand about the stories- first and foremost that the plot is basically about repentant vampires who have eschewed a life of preying upon humans for a life of protecting them. |
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Post by stevekimes on Jan 9, 2011 21:23:17 GMT -8
A lot of people consider anything with vampires and werewolves demonic because they assume that it is demons that cause such phenomena. Of course, the important aspect to remember is that this is fiction. I'm sure that fiction can be used to encourage us to think negatively, but if it doesn't, is it bad?
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 10, 2011 18:11:55 GMT -8
I just think that we have to be carefull what we put in, in the name of art and fantasy. As a non believer I was affected by it. I will post something about it later.
someone said ''but I think most people who are against them don't actually know anything firsthand about the stories''
I have seen the movies and I used to watch every horror movie before I become a christian. Let me tell you, it was not good for me, at first it was the adrenaline fear, but then it became part of my teenage cult, drinking in cemetery, rituals, weird friends and so on.
As a christian we may be stronger but we have to advocates and protect the youth, that sometimes have to strugle all their lifes to get out of it, or the effects of it.
No offense but I think that ''protected'' kids don't know enough about it.
more later
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Post by Josh on Jan 10, 2011 19:20:02 GMT -8
Which movies? I just want to be clear we're just talking about the Twilight movies here and not all vampire-themed movies and stories. Certainly there is a lot of non-redemptive vampire mythos out there.
And I'm not saying the Twilight stories are sublime fantasy anywhere near the Lord of the Rings or Narnia, etc.. There are some underlying themes I would disagree with (there's a lot of Mormon theology throughout), but then again there is a lot to be commended- themes of chastity, repentence, good vs. evil.
As to the original Bram Stoker's Dracula, I will go to bat that it can easily be seen as sharing a Christian worldview and I have found it especially inspiring to my thoughts on spiritual warfare.
This also works the other way. "Unprotected" kids often miscontrue or completely miss deeper meanings in stories.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 10, 2011 19:32:33 GMT -8
Do you believe the vampires are humans? Or are they demons?
Even in the story. I don't think the affect on our youth is positive but rather carnal.
Having sex with a man or a demon? Are the demons able to repent?
I think is More confusing than a good story, and more bad behaviors wrapped in beatifull faces and bodies, with a little cool flavour.
Again for a christian it may be ok, especially an educated one but how about the young christians? or the unbelievers.
Really we don't have anything better than Dracula, vampires and Harry potter?
I understand your spirit of redemtion in everything, but how about the line between the negative effects vs. the positive.
Is it ok to watch everything that has a little good in, no matter how much trash we eat/? remember I am advocating for our children.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 10, 2011 19:47:59 GMT -8
''This also works the other way. "Unprotected" kids often miscontrue or completely miss deeper meanings in stories''
Can you give a reason for that, I don't understand, I hope is not just for the sake of argument, are you sugesting that those kids are not smart or educated enough ?
I m pretty sure they do, maybe too much.
I just wanted to say that maybe the effects of these movies are not as real to them. What are u saying?
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Post by Josh on Jan 10, 2011 21:45:48 GMT -8
In Twilight they aren't really either, but I don't know what their "origin" is supposed to be. In Bram Stoker's Dracula they are sort of like Nephilim.
Yes, they are able to stop preying on humans and like a "celebate" life helping others.
what bad behaviors are you talking about?
When did I say that there's "nothing better"? And I'm not lumping this in with Harry Potter, of which I know very little.
That's just it. From what I've seen of the first 3 Twilight movies, I'd say there's more positive than negative. And that's saying a lot for anything Hollywood related.
You and I both work with kids who fit the description "unprotected". None of them have been shielded from the ugly side of life.
You think kids who have been shielded might miss the uglier deeper meanings. I'm saying that kids who have been unprotected need some guidance in order to recognize the embedded positive meanings, but when they have some educated guidance, certain stories can be majorly beneficial to their worldview. That's why I spend a lot of time in my classes with stories like Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and even to a much lesser extent Twilight.
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Post by Josh on Jan 10, 2011 21:50:57 GMT -8
In the end, the most important question to me about a work of fiction is- does it glorify good or evil? And that makes all the difference.
Case in point- Bram Stoker's Dracula the book- I think it glorifies good and vilifies evil. Coppola's movie version of it does just the opposite.
Most of the popular Vampire novels merely celebrate evil; Twilight, as far as I can tell so far, celebrates faithfulness, restraint, chastity, marriage, and resisting evil.
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Post by carebear on Jan 10, 2011 22:14:03 GMT -8
I don't think, for the sake of teaching some positive aspects from a movie, we should allow ourselves to see the ungodly portions/ideas of it. I personally feel like the twilight movie is very sexual (even without blatant sex scenes). Girls are very good at fantasizing about the guy without seeing a sex scene. It's not healthy for us to fantasize about these kinds of things. I found an article that gave good insight I think: stevehickey.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/twilight-is-a-welcome-mat-for-the-demonic/ |
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 10, 2011 22:15:02 GMT -8
Can you learn about all those qualities that you mentioned above when watching that movie without any side affects from the things that can damage your soul? Is there another place that we can get those good qualities/learn about them? I still don't understand why we have to look for embedded meanings in a place where we can damage our soul when there is fresh water and fresh bread and all those good qualities you mentioned in the Bible or other human stories (which don't have a negative--vampires)
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Post by carebear on Jan 10, 2011 23:08:50 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Jan 11, 2011 8:59:52 GMT -8
You have a point about the "sexual" nature of certain scenes and the "sexualization" of the actors/roles. I'm not sure what to make of Pattison's remarks- they could be arguments for either side I suppose because he's emphasizing the intended message but also acknowledging that a good message can get distorted, which isn't super surprising because the best things corrupt the most powerfully.
The sexualization is a subjective thing though. I wouldn't let my kids watch the films until they were much older because there are suggestive scenes. However, for our students who are way sexualized, it's a breath of fresh air for them to see that it is a virtue to restrain lust.
Anyway, I am much more concerned about sexualization in the story than about vampires. Vampires are metaphors for either the devil or fallen humanity. And therefore vampire tales tell us a lot about the enemy without and the enemy within.
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Post by Josh on Jan 11, 2011 9:02:18 GMT -8
Can you learn about all those qualities that you mentioned above when watching that movie without any side affects from the things that can damage your soul? Is there another place that we can get those good qualities/learn about them? I still don't understand why we have to look for embedded meanings in a place where we can damage our soul when there is fresh water and fresh bread and all those good qualities you mentioned in the Bible or other human stories (which don't have a negative--vampires) Paul himself looked for embedded meanings in places we might think could be soul-damaging (Acts 17). It's exciting to see how God shows up in the most unlikely places. But of course there is a question of personal conviction and spiritual maturity. The thing that bothers me is when someone gets up on a pedestal and proclaims things like this wrong for all Christians. |
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Post by carebear on Jan 11, 2011 13:25:40 GMT -8
Josh wrote:
I think that the nature of vampires promotes the sexual aspect of the movie though.
Whether the person watching the movie is 8 or 18, I don’t think it is that beneficial. Women don’t need to see the sex scenes. They just get wrapped up in the idea of Edward and all that he is portraying and they fantasize about it on their own. Anyways, from what I read about the movie, I’m not sure it is edifying. It kind of seems like a movie that holds the ‘sex carrot’ out in front of the audience without showing sex scenes (the actor mentioned the movie having an opposite affect on the audience--opposite of chastity--and that is my point). Why not flee from the temptation rather than ‘play’ with the idea so much? And I think the vampire—sucking the blood idea—is sexual in nature and that is what is drawing the crowds.
Josh wrote:
Yes, I see your point but my question is about whether we need to watch the sexual tales in order to learn about fighting the enemy without and within. I don’t know how productive it is, even for 'lost' sexualized teens.
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Post by freebirdro on Jan 11, 2011 14:54:34 GMT -8
Act 17 does not make sense in the argument in my opinion, he was about to save people from a crazy city.
Are you saying we have to save the fictional characters in the story or the animated cartoons for that matter?
''what if cartoon were saved'' oh wait '' what if vampires were saved'' lol
If you remember I said is OK for some Christians, they maybe are strong and can take it, I didn't said is bad for everyone , but I think you should look more into how much young girls, very young girls are affected and by promoting something that does not hurt you does not make it necessary good. I think that we are hurting more people than we save by promoting this movie.
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Post by Josh on Jan 12, 2011 21:20:14 GMT -8
I respect your convictions on this and I don't want to beat a dead horse (or an undead vampire either  ) so I'm going to let you guys have the last word if you'd like except to clarify what I meant here: Not sure where you got the idea I was saying we need to save the fictional characters. The point was that Paul used the pagan culture's own mythological motifs as a bridge to reach them with the gospel. I am certain that Stoker's original Dracula is such a tool and I think to a lesser and more sullied degree Twilight can be such a tool as well. And besides, "vampires" are saved. I'm one of them- so are you- we all are. Whereas left to our own devices we would operate only on the "basic principles of this world" continually trying to satisfy our lustful thirsts, we have in Christ become "new creatures"- becoming fully human in the way we were always intended to be. |
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) so I'm going to let you guys have the last word if you'd like except to clarify what I meant here: