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Post by christopher on Dec 8, 2010 21:05:17 GMT -8
Chris, For me, to see in the Spirit realm is to also see the activity of the Holy Spirit and the activity of the devil and demons. It seemed like your post a few days back implied that we shouldn't expect to see demons very much at all because you can only think of a few people in your life that you know have encountered them, which in turn seemed like you were downplaying seeing in the spirit realm as well....calling that absurd as well. So maybe that's not what you meant? Not what I'm saying at all, I'm only speaking about the reality of things. It's not too hard to do the math. Think of all the Christians you know. Now count how many you sincerely believe have explicitly cast out demons or even encountered them. Is the percentage high or low? I don't say that measure is the standard, only an indicator of probability of what we can expect. Sure I believe we can encounter them, and I think we should be prepared when we do. But I don't think chasing demons (or what we think are demons) is a vocation the average Christian has been called to IMO. Agreed. That would certainly be non-sequitur of course. Again, I'm sorry if that's what you took my words to mean. How will you do that? What do you mean by "seeing"? Don't you see into that realm whenever you're tempted with a thought you know is not yours? I think I'd rather leave that up to him to explain if he comes on. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.
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Post by rbbailey on Dec 8, 2010 21:46:43 GMT -8
I think Matt's questions at the end about what the church should or shouldn't be actually doing in light of spiritual warfare were the ones that perplexed me most. We all agree that we are to wear the armor of God, that love and faith are our primary weapons in the fight, but when it comes to something that seems so assumed as normative in the New Testament (casting out demons) we seem to be of a million different minds. You know, this is a huge topic that I would like to continue to do more pondering on; maybe write about some day, but I'll try to boil it down as far as I've worked it out so far: I believe that since Christ came to earth, the party has ended, so to speak, as far as the overt spiritual activity between man and devils are concerned. What do I mean? And what is my evidence? Well, what I don't mean is that spiritual warfare or interactions don't ever, or won't ever occur again. What I do mean is that Christ's triumph over death changed things... Something that occurred to me a few years back is the fact that throughout all of human history, man has been quite spiritual in whatever way you can think of. But if you look back from where we are now, you see that on a whole, civilization has slowly become less and less spiritual. It used to be that any given human being believed in the gods, or in God proper. It used to be that any given civilization worshiped their own sets of gods in their own ways. Yet, for one reason or another, that has all changed I believe those gods were real. Angels are real, so are demons. What is a god to a man but a devil in a nice dress? (Hey! That's a pretty good quote!) Why does the Old Testament (particularly) warn so strictly against worshiping other gods? Because they are real. A fake god, a god that truly is just an idol of stone, is a harmless thing to the almighty God, and to us. But the little gods those idols represent are what are harmful to we humans -- and God warned us about them time and time again. In the New Testament, it was still very common (it seems) to have multiple gods and demons floating around. Jesus and his followers dealt with them enough to have it written about multiple times. Since then, the cults, the various pagan temple worship societies, the hundreds of other recognized gods, have slowly faded from the collective mind of the human race. Again, not that it doesn't still happen, but just that it is drastically different than back in the day. So what is the explanation? Are the gods beaten back, licking their wounds from the battle with Christ? Are they hiding? Are they biding their time? Or are they still there in different form? I think the answer is a little of all of the above. Christ changed everything. The gods relied on their ability to pull man away from the one true God by tapping into man's innate desire to get a ticket to the right place in the next life. Creating their own little cult religions around themselves, with their own groupings of human societies following their commands, is what the gods used to do to draw us away from the one true God. Everyone knew, even the Old Testament Jew, that you had to be good -- perfect -- to get to paradise once leaving this life. So the gods tapped into that and took advantage of it. Since the time of Christ, the need for religious piety in order to attain perfection and everlasting life has slipped down a few notches on the why are we here? leader board. This truth has slowly inched its way through the global society because of Christianity. And especially in the last 200-300 years, man's need for perfection as a means to an end turned from that end being eternity in the new world with God, to an attempt to make this life better here and now. Science. Humanism. Government as an answer to society's problems. Gadgets and distractions of modern life. All good things; all idols, if given the chance. The old gods are up to new tricks. They've been beaten at their old game and have turned to a new, quieter, more seductive, more tolerant to the mind of modern man, game of stealing souls. They used to use a wooden figure in a small, mud hut as a visual reminder of the spiritual world that takes hard work to enter. Now they use TV as a visual distraction to make us forget there is a spiritual world that we don't have to work for to enter. I've seen demons. I've seen what they can do to a person. But their attacks are few and far between. I used to live on a camp, my dad was the director of this Christian camp for four years. Once a year, for one week every summer, there was an attack. Not that the gods aren't always poking and prodding, but this was an attack. Once a year, there would be a week where my dad would not come home. Once a year, there were screams and things in the dark, and odd sicknesses, and an inordinate population of student campers who had come from abusive homes or churches. It does still happen. Even now, just writing about it brings back a very particular sensation that is only reserved for those specific times when the old gods are about.
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Post by carebear on Dec 12, 2010 10:45:44 GMT -8
rbbaily wrote:
I think there are multitudes of people who come from abusive homes/churches, or abusive mindsets. There could be multitudes of people hurting in one way or another in all of our towns, possibly being tormented by spirits. Many people medicate for this reason with prescription drugs, street drugs, alcohol, internet, TV, isolation, etc. i think there is a real need to be tuned into the Holy Spirit to be ready to move when He does.
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Post by carebear on Dec 12, 2010 11:13:44 GMT -8
chris wrote:
I think it's somewhat irrelevant to look around at how many CHristians around us have cast out demons, and that that should give us an idea of whether or not there is a need for casting out of demons. I think a lot of Christians in the US have turned off their need to rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit because we have all we need. And if we can give someone money to help the poor, we don't need to do anything else. We can just live our lives, eating, sleeping, playing games. Many people have lost the intimate walk with God, like going where He goes (in their own town). It's kind of like, many American Christians think they need to go where God goes only if they are in a third world country, but in America, we can choose when to talk to Him/walk with Him. These are thoughts I'm having as I'm writing....ideas to throw out there.
chris wrote:
I think that the more we commune with the Holy Spirit and draw near to Him, the more we will see in the spiritual realm. I think the more we learn to hear His voice, the more we will recognize His movements, His voice. I think Christians can be able to see in the supernatural, things that are happening in people's lives, give words of knowledge, sense the Spirit moving, recognize evil spirits, etc.
“Prophecy is released in us most often by faint impressions given by the Spirit. Pay attention to the impressions of the Spirit such as symptomatic pains, re-occurring mental pictures, distinct emotional stirrings, or the Spirit touching a specific area of our body (heat or energy).
The demonstration of the Spirit follows a declaration of a believer. The Spirit moves as the Word is spoken. We must give expression to impressions. Desiring to prophesy involves three things: 1. Ask the question: 'Holy Spirit, what are you saying or doing?' Take time to ask this. I encourage people to dial down to be more sensitive to subtle impressions. 2. Verbalize the impression: We must give expression to the faint impressions of the Spirit. 3. Value small demonstrations: Be faithful in little things (we do not despise the smallness).”
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Post by christopher on Dec 12, 2010 20:20:02 GMT -8
I think it's somewhat irrelevant to look around at how many CHristians around us have cast out demons, and that that should give us an idea of whether or not there is a need for casting out of demons. Well, ok, I don't really see anything to argue with or agree with there, I'm just trying to be honest with my observations. And, by the way, I haven't denied there being a need out there, I just haven't seen much evidence of it in my daily encounters. So I guess I would have to ask you where you have specifically observed this need and what you have done about it? I think a lot of Christians in the US have turned off their need to rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit because we have all we need. And if we can give someone money to help the poor, we don't need to do anything else. We can just live our lives, eating, sleeping, playing games. Many people have lost the intimate walk with God, like going where He goes (in their own town). It's kind of like, many American Christians think they need to go where God goes only if they are in a third world country, but in America, we can choose when to talk to Him/walk with Him. These are thoughts I'm having as I'm writing....ideas to throw out there. Can't disagree with you there (and not just the US either). I think that the more we commune with the Holy Spirit and draw near to Him, the more we will see in the spiritual realm. I think the more we learn to hear His voice, the more we will recognize His movements, His voice. I think Christians can be able to see in the supernatural, things that are happening in people's lives, give words of knowledge, sense the Spirit moving, recognize evil spirits, etc. “Prophecy is released in us most often by faint impressions given by the Spirit. Pay attention to the impressions of the Spirit such as symptomatic pains, re-occurring mental pictures, distinct emotional stirrings, or the Spirit touching a specific area of our body (heat or energy). The demonstration of the Spirit follows a declaration of a believer. The Spirit moves as the Word is spoken. We must give expression to impressions. Desiring to prophesy involves three things: 1. Ask the question: 'Holy Spirit, what are you saying or doing?' Take time to ask this. I encourage people to dial down to be more sensitive to subtle impressions. 2. Verbalize the impression: We must give expression to the faint impressions of the Spirit. 3. Value small demonstrations: Be faithful in little things (we do not despise the smallness).” I'm curious how that's working out for you. What are you seeing in the spiritual realm as you practice this?
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Lady J
Intermediate Member
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage. ~Lao Tzu
Posts: 41
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Post by Lady J on Dec 13, 2010 16:27:25 GMT -8
Hey Carie, could you give a reference for your last quote about prophecy?
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Post by Josh on Dec 13, 2010 19:58:40 GMT -8
Ok- I just got caught up on reading this thread. Good stuff.
I grouped some quotes from you guys together topically so I can respond to them together.
How do we know if we are "doing enough" regarding spiritual warfare? Well, I'm not sure, but I notice that Paul seemed to imply that it would be normal for us to be aware of the enemies "movements", so to speak:
2 Cor. 2:11
...in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
In the context above, Paul indicates that there is a link between unforgiveness and demonic strategy. But that's just one of the enemy's schemes. Do we think enough like this, that when we are battling sin we need to anticipate the scheming mind that takes advantage of them? I don't think so.
I'm regretting titling this thread "casting out demons" because I was really trying to address spiritual warfare. I'm readily willing to admit that there will be a whole lot less excorcisms than battles with demons. And I do know several people who are engaged in what I believe to be very overt battles with spiritual forces of wickedness which have gained some kind of foothold. I think battling demons is should be a normative experience for every believer; excorcism should be a normative experience for the church as a whole.
It's bedtime for the kiddos.... I'll be back.
Okay. Back.
as to the "average family guy"- don't you think you are fighting demons all the time as a parent? And wouldn't you like to be aware of the enemies schemes against your children and your marriage?*
As to what we should be doing, well, I think most of us could use to ask in prayer more frequently to be given wisdom as to the enemy's schemes. I don't do that enough, and I think I should do that more. Also, I think we engage in any kingdom activity from parenting to helping the needy, we should be kept our radar up by prayerfully considering the spiritual dynamics around us.
*I'm not suggesting you aren't, just that we certainly don't want to be in the dark if we don't have to be.
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Post by Josh on Dec 13, 2010 20:35:13 GMT -8
I can think of a few times when I thought that maybe I should be so bold as to inquire about arranging an exorcism and have held back out of doubt or laziness.
I've never meant to imply that you have done anything "wrong". Since I'm now distinguishing between exorcism and fighting demonic powers, a follow up question- do you think, or have a sense that in your ministry there you were doing battle with the enemy?
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Post by Josh on Dec 13, 2010 20:42:51 GMT -8
Chris and Mike- I hope you know that I share these concerns. I think the demon-behind-everything mentality stems from a misunderstanding of sin and evil. Sin and evil and suffering are ultimately independent of demons or other evil spiritual forces. They could exist without them, in other words. So just because something bad happens, it doesn't mean a demon is behind it. Rather, demons are freewill creatures who take advantage of bad situations, magnifying or exacerbating them- exploiting breaches as it were.
How does a person know if a bad situation has a demon involved in it? Well, unless there is some kind of manifestation of an evil will in a situation we can't be sure.
Somewhat akin to what Carrie said, wouldn't the fact that the enemy whispers in our culture make you more motivated to be aware of his movements rather than less?
carrie wrote:
to which chris replied:
Yes, I think we see into the spirit realm as it were when we are tempted. But I think there are times when we see into the spirit realm in other ways- such as in premonitions or visions such as the one Elisha's servant had in 2 Kings 6:15-17:
15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?” the servant asked. 16 “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”
17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, LORD, so that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
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Post by christopher on Dec 14, 2010 19:12:42 GMT -8
Josh wrote: Well, you'll get a lot more agreement from me now that you've changed the premise. I don't think there are too many Christians that would say we aren't engaged in a spiritual battle. Knowing the enemy's "shemes" ("devices" in the NKJV) doesn't necessarily have to mean tracking his movements, it's just as easy to say we know his intentions or tricks. It doesn't take much more than reading the bible to know that. You don't need some special revelation or spirit world glasses to see it IMO. Ok, fair enough, we should be praying more frequently and considering spiritual dynamics around us. How will you know when you are doing that enough? Is it even possible? I was acutely aware of that every time I went in and I made it a habit to pray against the powers of darkness during the drive down. I think there might be some sort of "spirit of confusion" on this thread . I don't think I've ever felt like my words have been so misconstrued as some of the answers I've received on this thread. It seems like there is a lot of reading more into what is actually said going on here. Where did anyone say that we should be "less motivated" to be aware of spiritual things? I thought we were talking about what is normative. Besides Elisha (and a few missionary anecdotes), how many people do you know have had this experience? Have you seen such a thing?
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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2010 20:07:23 GMT -8
Chris,
For me, this thread has been more of "thinking out loud" than arguing a position. In the end, it seems like we are mostly in agreement here. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.
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Post by carebear on Dec 14, 2010 21:38:59 GMT -8
Chris wrote: This quote that Josh was referring to (that I stated a few days ago) was in response to a post Michael wrote, not you, so hopefully that clears it up. Michael wrote: And this is what I was responding to. I just think it's best to be more in tune with the movements of the holy spirit and what is going on in the spirit realm, especially in countries like the US where attacks may be more 'subtle' than overt attacks like we see in africa. I remember the woman who helped deliver the '5th bride of satan' in georgia or illinois? on the furious love movie. i think she is tapping more into 'seeing in the spirit realm' than most christians. many of the people on that furious love movie have something i want in that regard. the man who moved through the salem witch festival and prayed for people and saw things in their lives/past, etc.......that's what i want to strive for, for the glory of God....never said i was there yet.
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Post by Josh on Dec 15, 2010 12:44:23 GMT -8
Ok. As I'm pondering it some more, I don't think I'm totally settled on the topic re: casting out demons.
Here's how I'm thinking about it today- even if we were to grant that on the whole excorcisms are rare events in kingdom work, don't you all think that the odds are that in our lifetime or the lifetime of our fellowship we would encounter a couple situations in which a bonifide exorcism would be called for? And don't you think that it would be easy in such a situations to miss the need by ignoring or downplaying it?
Also, perhaps to resurrect some fresh discussion, what would need to be happening in the life of someone in our community or someone one of us knows in order to actually convene a serious exorcism?
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Post by christopher on Dec 15, 2010 18:27:40 GMT -8
don't you all think that the odds are that in our lifetime or the lifetime of our fellowship we would encounter a couple situations in which a bonifide exorcism would be called for? And don't you think that it would be easy in such a situations to miss the need by ignoring or downplaying it? Maybe the Barna group would be better qualified to answer that? What do you mean? On a related note, I was very interested in this topic a few years ago and I ended up "reverse outlining" and teaching on a excellent series of lectures Steve Gregg gave on the topic of Spiritual Warfare. He covered it very well I thought. If you want to look up the notes, they're available on a few websites that asked me if they could post them. Here's one of them: www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/text/crombie_spiritual_warfare.pdf
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Post by Josh on Dec 17, 2010 12:00:45 GMT -8
What I mean was what criteria would you use in decided whether to attempt to exorcise a demon from someone?
Thanks for the link, btw.
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Post by christopher on Dec 18, 2010 15:16:27 GMT -8
So, do you think it's really that simple? I don't think we can list the criteria IMO. Wouldn't it almost have to depend on circumstances given the various ways these things manifest?
I would think if we ever found ourselves dealing with demonization, we would know it (eventually anyways). And I trust that God would give us guidance on how to deal with it if that's what we're supposed to do.
Just out of curiosity, what would be your criteria?
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Post by Josh on Dec 21, 2010 10:10:56 GMT -8
Chris, I'm not talking about some exhaustive checklist criteria, but just some important red flags. I'm not as confident as you that we would "just know it" and I also don't underestimate people's ability to deny what is in front of their faces because it's uncomfortable (yes, even myself ) To me, one criteria would be the manifestation of something either overtly supernatural in a negative sense or gratuitously dark or malevolent. For example, if someone spoke in a voice not their own, knew things they shouldn't know naturally, became fixated on occult beliefs or practices, then I would seriously consider some kind of excorcism-type intervention (if the party was willing in some way). The only exorcism/ deliverance case I was ever remotely involved in had to do with a girl who was increasingly withdrawn and hostile, pretending to be or acting like a cat often, and simultaneously strangely resistant and open to the work of Christ in her life. I am told that that deliverance/ excorcism was successful, though I didn't attend it. I did however, have a supernatural experience while I was praying for it during the event. I think a lot of well-meaning Chistians would have avoided the awkwardness of arranging an "excorcism" in her case, but I'm glad the person who confronted the situation did.
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