Ritual and Physical Objects in Church/ Sacraments

[Josh]

I'm listening through a lecture by NT Wright on "Sacraments" that Chris let me borrow. Wright starts his lecture by clearing away some of the concerns that tend to arise among Protestants about the value of rituals like communion, baptism, etc.. and the use of physical objects and actions in the Church.

"If anyone were to think that doing something physical in church- performing an action-- is an indication that you actually think you're pleasing God... -you're earning some special points of merit by doing so-- well, I suppose there may be some muddled Christians who think like that, but that has never been the teaching of the Church at it's best-- rather, we do what we do out of gratitiude...love..[and] a response to grace. It is always a response to grace, never a way of manipulating God to get grace.

And likewise you have all sorts of Protestant hang-ups about physical objects. Protestant iconography... tends to be pretty sparse and bare.

...There is of course always a danger that any object- even a bare whitewashed hall where people have prayed- can become an idol... [but] you don't escape the danger of idolatry by getting rid of symbolic objects from your church."

This resonates with me strongly, growing up in a church that was definitely on the sparer end of things.

The fact is that God created physical matter and blessed it as good. There really isn't as fine a line between the spiritual and the physical realms as we'd like to imagine.

And in Church, the best celebrations come when both the physical and the spiritual (heaven and earth, as in the Lord's prayer) come into contact with each other.

[portlandjosh]

There really isn't as fine a line between the spiritual and the physical realms as we'd like to imagine.

Huh? I don't understand. Whyever would we even imagine there to be a line between spiritual and physical? People are spiritual beings, obviously made of physical stuff. Heaven, the ultimate spiritual place, is described in completely physical terms (streets of gold, etc.) and come to think of it, so is hell (fire and all).

Sins, which are spiritual things, are always physical. Unauthorized sex or blasphemous thoughts are done with physical parts, like a body or a brain, not with your spirit. Seems to me that they're totally mixed up together.

I don't get it!

[Josh]

Mostly, I'd agree with you, except this phrase:

Sins, which are spiritual things, are always physical. Unauthorized sex or blasphemous thoughts are done with physical parts, like a body or a brain, not with your spirit.

That last line is a Gnostic idea... and it has been used as a way to ultimately excuse humans from the responsibility of sin. The idea that our bodies can sin while our spirits remain unaffected is not a Scriptural one.

[Margot]

Without commenting on the Josh-v.-P.Josh discussion.........this thread reminded me of something that has always bothered me about "becoming" a Protestant. Growing up in the Catholic church, I felt like a lot of what was physically beautiful about the church, was dedicated to (what I perceived as) idolatry. Unfortunately, in choosing to follow a traditional protestant faith, I feel like I've thrown the baby out with the bath water. I hope I am not offending anyone here, but I find very little, if anything, that is beautiful in the Protestant churches I've been to. Usually the closest I can get is a nice flower arrangement up near the podium (!) Actually, it was the flowers that first tipped me off to all of this. One Sunday, I found myself fixated on the flowers up front and I kept telling everyone what a beautiful, colorful arrangement I thought it was. People started looking at me like I was a little crazy, and then suddenly it hit me: I was starving for beauty in the place where I worship. Not long after, I went to a silent (Protestant) retreat at a Catholic retreat center. It was a hot, humid day, and for the first time I noticed things. It was calming to me that the building was made of smooth marble; there was an echo in the sound of oak floors as I walked down the halls that seemed hollow and musical; the gardens around the building were shaped in way that offered contemplation of my Creator. My heart's desire would be that we could strike a "happy medium" in the church. I don't want to spend a million dollars on a place to meet, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that color and natural beauty enhance my worship and I often find I miss it more than I realize.

[Josh]

Margot,

Great thoughts there. This reminds me of a similar thread to which your sentiments point as well:

Gothic Churches are hot

I especially appreciate your balance.

However, though I know many Christians of the protestant persuasion who feel this way, I notice that often the discussion ends here.

Do you (or anyone else) have practical suggestions to help meet this dilemma in a workable way? I'm curious if one person's solution would be another persons dilemma. Would moves in this direction be divisive?*


* it seems like we could make the case that the absence of much art is already divisive...

[rose]

Josh and I attended Imago Dei before Aletheia became Aletheia, and I loved what they had going on there. Back then they were still using the Old Laurelhurst Church as their space (they are now at Franklin High School) - and I LOVE that church. It is such a splendid building; the architecture, dark wood floors and trim, and the tall ceilings. It's just a great older building...nothing fancy, just beautiful. And they didn't necessarily have ornate "things" set up in the room or on the walls, but they did often mix pictures of art - whether it was art that was 100's of years old (being shown on a large screen) or something someone had just painted during worship - in to the service. I felt like it was such a great blend of beauty without the ornateness, and a way to enjoy beautiful art without having to spend a lot of time/money/energy. They blended many wonderful things in to each service - and I think they are a great example of having balance between recognizing beauty in created things and worshiping created things.

I am completely for having beautiful reflections of God's creativity in the place where I worship Him.

[Josh]

I'm just curious if anyone else (besides Brian and I) digs the incense at church from time to time?

I would never want to use it every Sunday, but on occasion I really like it, and here's why: I love incorporating as many of our five senses into worship as possible. For taste we have the bread and wine, for sound we have the music and the teaching, for visuals we have the cross, the powerpoint slides, the.... Ibanez , for touch we have the laying on of hands, but our sense of smell is largely overlooked. Yet, it's one of the most powerfully evocative senses we have. Ever noticed how just a whiff of a certain aroma can bring back powerful memories? I like the experience of having a certain smell remind me of special times with the family of God.

[stevekimes]

I don't use incense at church or at home because of people's (read: my wife's) breathing issues.

At our congregation, we have two traditions:

First, that finances go toward people's needs. This limits the amount of beautification that we do, but it keeps us honest as to what our finances must be used for.

On the other hand, in our Sunday service, we have an art table that is open all throughout the worship service. This gives people an opportunity to worship God through their art. And when the art is done, then is it displayed on the walls of the sanctuary. Much of the art is childish (well, some of it is made by children, and some by people whose mental capacity is limited) but it is all beautiful and honoring to God.

I'm no good at art myself and this lack of confidence disallows me from participating in this form of worship. I am so glad, however, to have permanent representations of other's worship.

Finally, I love icons and icon symbology, especially that of the Greek Orthodox Church. Anyone else interested in that?

[Josh]

That's awesome about the art table! I wish we could display things on our walls- however it's a shared space.

[carebear]

I'm just curious if anyone else (besides Brian and I) digs the incense at church from time to time?

I like it sometimes, or for awhile, but sometimes incense is too strong for me to smell for long periods of time.

[Josh]

sometimes incense is too strong for me to smell for long periods of time.

Like today ;D LOL.

I need to find a nice medium-burning incense. I can't seem to keep the real Orthodox stuff lit, and the stuff I used today burned like crazy

[carebear]

I think the day it seemed strong to me, I was sitting closest to it on the couch....so today i was fine because I was towards the back and then in the nursery...lol. No worries. yeah a medium burning incense would be a good thing. thanks again for opening up the church again! hope justus was ok